The problem however is that this culmination (i.e. the WC 2010 tournament performance of Spain) wasn't really anything like 'sheer dominance'. On the contrary, it was more a case of grinding out the required results. Also, even though this Spanish team is famed for its attack, I find it difficult to rate it as the best of its own era on that aspect, considering the kind of displays that the Netherlands served up in the group stages of Euro 08. I do rate this Spanish team as the best ever at keeping possession though. Overall, I would rate this Spanish team below the top tier which IMO would include the Uruguay of 1920s, the Hungary of 1950s, the Brazil of 1960s and the Germany of 1970s.
This quote is quite interesting: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xp70toz_w5Y"]Brazil x England - 1962 World's Cup - part 01 - YouTube[/ame] @13:20
Good point. They did only get past beat Italy in penalties. Whilst Holland completely destroyed them 3-0.
However different an animal that Italy might be, that performance of Netherlands was still a class apart from any attacking performance seen in recent times at NT level, except for their similar dismantling of France ofcourse, IMO.
Aren't the italians known as notoriously slow starters? Didn't they almost get eliminated in 82 when they won it? The italians build strength, as a tournament progresses.
Nevertheless, Spain got their share of blowout wins in Euro 2008. Interesting you bring-up the Netherlands because Spain blew-out Russia twice, and Russia totally outclassed the Netherlands in the same tournament. You can't say Netherlands was the better team in that era when they didn't even come close to winning the tournament that Spain won quite convincingly. It takes 6 good matches to win the Euros, not 3. Also, trying to compare 2008-? Spain to the 1920s Uruguay is a non-starter.
They might be slow starters historically, but they weren't playing any better against Spain in the QFs in Euro 08'. The Netherlands were simply a cut above in terms of potency in attack, during that group stage, as compared to any NT of recent times. Shame btw that the Netherlands had an off-day against the Russians in the QFs, else we could have seen a potentially very exciting Netherlands-Spain SF. I can't help but imagine that it would be nothing like the dull affair that was the WC Final. They were IMO, not really close to being as impressive offensively as the Netherlands were against Italy and France in their blowouts. I never said "Netherlands was the better team". Well, thats your opinion, and I have already given mine.
Well you said that you can't rate Spain as the best in their own era because of what Netherlands did in Euro 2008. I mean, either Spain are the best in this era or they are not the best. You obviously feel its the latter. So who was better over the past 5 years then, if not the Netherlands (who we've learned you just mentioned for fun I guess)? What's it based on though? Books? Just curious because the 4-5 teams you listed as being on another level above Spain all existed a very long time ago. In some (all?) cases, before you were born.
I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I was saying that the best offense amongst NTs of recent times, in terms of peak performance, was IMO the Netherlands team's high tempo counter-attack game from the Euro 08' group stages and not that of the World and Euro Cup winning Spanish side, which is the overall better team. A combination of different aspects like the amount of trophies won, the number of genuine all-timers playing for the team, their highest ELO ratings, the results that they achieved when playing other strong teams, etc.; sources for these vary btw. A mix and match of the above aspects is better for these top-tier national teams than it is for Spain 08-10 IMO. I personally rate this Spanish team on par with the French team of 98-00 and the German team of the mid 80s-mid 90s (there may be others of similar stature, but I am feeling a bit lazy right now to look them up).
Going by that criteria, the French 1998-00 team doesn't really stack-up to Spain 2008-11. For example, I don't even think that France team was ranked #1 at any point whereas Spain has been ranked #1 almost continuously for 3 years and counting now.
In Peles' last year, Brazil70 only lost 1 game of total 20games until he retired in 71. (that game vs Argentina 1st leg and Pele scored to win 2nd game). In those last 20games, Pele scored 12goals and many assists ...
By what criteria among those does that France team not stack up to this Spain team? Also, if you are concentrating on only one criteria to the detriment of all others to question my opinion, please don't do that. I used a mix and match of all those criterias, taking into account factors affecting those criterias, to finally come to my conclusion. Since considering only one criteria at a time, Hungary of the 50s didn't win a World Cup being only finalists in 54'. So one can argue that they are were a poorer team than Argentina 78', even though such an argument would not make much sense in footballing terms. Hmm, France not being no.1, where did you get that from man? Are you perchance taking that 98-00 timespan too seriously? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Football_Elo_Ratings_leaders From what I see in that link above, between 98'-02' they were only removed from the no.1 ranking by Brazil after it won the Copa in 99'. Even with that happening, France were still at no.1 for 1036 days in that 4 year timespan and went into 3 straight major tournaments ranked as the no.1 team in the world. They won 2 Confed Cups in addition to the WC and EC and didn't suffer 4 goal blowouts in official or friendly matches, till Euro 08' and the Netherlands came around. Good for Spain that it doesn't have any serious competition outside of Europe now, eh? Or that there were no major tournaments between 08' and 10' for a team to challenge it for the top spot, eh? Anyway, I just remembered that the Brazilian(94'-04') team of France's era (and by this I would now like to explain that I am talking about France during that decade from 96'-06', guess I should have started that way itself to avoid confusion since 98'-00' doesn't really take into account all of France's titles nor all its time as a top team) would also make it to that group of great NTs with ease (alongside this Spain team and Germany of the mid 80s-mid90s), what with their 3 successive WC Final appearances and 2 trophies, in addition to their 3 Copa and 1(2 = 2005) Confed Cups.
Well when comparing teams in different time periods, I think we just have to make the assumption that the competition is the same. Otherwise there is no basis to make the comparison. But yeah, I would agree that Brazil is weaker now than during France's strong period (but of course there are other NTs that a stronger now e.g. Germany). I suppose if Spain bomb's out of Euro 2012 and WC 2014 they will be comparable to France '96-'06. I highly doubt that will happen but we shall see. Fair enough , but those are really 2 totally different teams. The '98-00 team was anchored by a great back 4 but a fairly weak/inexperienced attack. By 2004 their defense was totally different (and mediocre) and the team was more about a great midfield plus Henry. I still say its a stretch to add those last 5 years though (2001-6) since the team sucked in 2 out of the 3 major tournaments. Even their dominance in qualifying disappeared which I think is an indicator that it was no longer a great team (a great team should always qualify for major tournaments with ease IMO).
I don't want to try and predict the future, we shall see what happens. Well the generation of players is more or less the same during that whole period (basically the French golden generation, similar to the Spanish one now). So while changes might have happened to the team due to some players retiring and some new ones coming in, it was still more or less the same faces who were performing well when the team did well, over that time period (Zidane, Thuram, etc.) Also, the team not doing well in some tournaments had to do more with injuries to key personnel (Zidane/Pires in WC 2002, much of the starting backline in Euro 04), which happens from time to time to every team. In any case, 4 trophies, 1 WC Final and a Euro SF over a decade's time is an extremely impressive record for one generation of a NT. Time will tell whether the current Spanish bunch can match that or improve upon it.
Well well, France were indeed ranked as #1 from 98 to 2001 by FIFA (thanks to their WC and Euro Cup)- only some months in 1999 that Brazil were emerged back to #1 for they won the copa ... and of course after 2002, Brazil restored their #1 position held CONSECUTIVELY from 93-97. You may be mistaken with "the best team of year" (not necessary ranking) that FIFA chose 7 best games of that team in same year to judge. For example: 1998: Brazil was voted as best team of the year, despite of France were ranked as #1. 2000: Holland was voted as best team of year, despite of France were still ranked as #1.
I always felt the Spanish had their luck in 2010. In the draw they met from pot 2 and pot 4 one of the weaker options (Honduras and Switzerland). Only Chile of pot 3 could be counted as belonging to the stronger half of their pot. Against Switzerland they got 5 minutes of added time to achieve their much needed draw. The heavily fatigued Swiss held on. The match against Chile was an encounter with blatant fouls on both sides. Spain were very lucky that Chile was the first to saw a man sent off. Moreover, a dive of Torres was rewarded with both a goal and a red card (second yellow) for the opponent (the referee was btw a Mexican). Spain, especially in the first half, could barely create chances against Portugal. Numerous fouls against C. Ronaldo were tolerated by the referee. Villa stood offside when making the goal. Towards the end of the match Capdevilla showed a fine piece of play-acting with a red card for the opponent as a reward. How lucky they were against Paraguay has been discussed elsewhere in this thread. Then, the match against the Germans was imo the best match of their entire reign (including 2008). The Germans were completely outplayed and nullified, their strengths were negated. Although Spain had still some difficulties in creating chances, the Germans weren't a threat either. I will let the disgusting final for what it is. Personally, I've always felt the 2008 version were the better side after all. By the way, that was also before the likes of Xavi and Iniesta became universally praised, the public opinion stuck to their side and every sign of luck or unsporting behaviour was negated for the sake of being the good guys.
If they bomb out at both they would still be behind the French team given their strong 2006 World Cup.
A good thing in hindsight as the defeat made tournament favorites Spain realize that merely showing up at the stadium wasn't going to win them the trophy. Advantage was played, and an unbiased neutral would have noticed that Estrada's right knee clipped Torres' right heel. Intentional on the Chilean's part? Only he knows. Pity the guy was already on a yellow. What does the referee's nationality have to do with the situation? Villa offside, yes. Llorente being subbed on in the second half made the difference as Spain were much more threatening once he entered for Torres. No replay conclusively shows whether Capdevila dived or was legitimately fouled. The panning cameras were too late in showing what had happened just before Capdevila went to ground. By the haters, yes. The Valdez goal was debatable, not concrete. It's tough to determine whether the crossed ball was touched by Cardozo or not. If not, the goal was valid. If he barely got a flick, he did so from an offside position. But again, no replay conclusively shows either way so we're left in limbo. Spain didn't receive all the luck as they had to retake their converted penalty. The second spot kick was saved. You'll find that most fans of Spain agree that the 2008 side was better. Credit to coach Luis Aragones. Xavi was named player of the tournament for EURO 2008 (I felt Marcos Senna deserved the award) so he received his just due well before South Africa... where he didn't live up to expectations, by the way. A big disappointment in 2010 (although not as big as Torres). Iniesta along with Casillas, Busquets and even Sergio Ramos were key men in South Africa. lol But of course.
I forgot to mention the FIFA somehow refused to suspend their main goal threat Villa for his misbehaviour against Honduras. Once again they were lucky.
You're referring, of course, to Villa's retaliatory strike at Emilio Izaguirre after Izaguirre had stepped on Villa's foot. Villa was guilty of instinct reaction, I agree. I'm sure most of us would have been given the circumstances. Both Villa and Izaguirre should have, at the very least, received bookings. Expulsion probably would have been justifiable for both. As it was, both Spain AND Honduras were probably lucky to remain with 11 players. I'll give you that. Unless one honestly believes a player would take a swipe at another for no reason whatsoever.
I aree, that France had enjoyed their (arguably) greatest generation of talents and achieved big in that decade from 96-2006. They were also favorite at both occasions WC02 and Euro04 as well - and fatefully, they were eliminated twice by some minnow teams (senegal at WC02, and Greece -eventually the Euro winner). They came back stronger and stronger as WC06 went deeper into final. On top of those big events, they had won twice confederation cup 2001 and 2003 in between: - WC98 winner - Euro2000 winner - Confed 2001 winner - confed 2003 winner - Euro04 SF - WC06 Runner up Yeah Spain needs to catch up with this coming Euro12, Confed13 and/or the next WC14
I don't play the game 'who's to blame'. Al what I am saying is that Spain was lucky here. It is not very uncommon to suspend players after the match ends.
The only thing you mentioned that I gave you was Villa's goal against Portugal. (And it was Xavi who was offside, not Villa) But I hope you don't believe that Portugal deserved to advance based on the 90 minutes of play. One would be hard pressed to name a team that won a knockout tournament without having the benefit of some luck on their side. But if Spain were as lucky as the haters like to believe, they would not have had to retake the penalty against Paraguay and De Jong would've been sent off. "Not very uncommon"? Tassotti in 1994 is the only instance in World Cup play I can think of when a non-booked player received a suspension post-match video review. If you can name nine more instances then you may persuade me that it's "not very uncommon".
Of course I can not name nine more instances out the top of my head when you a) only have one world cup every four years and b) the FIFA only began to use video reviewing in the 1980s or so. One other example is btw Paraguayan goalkeeper Chilavert who was suspended by the FIFA for spitting on Roberto Carlos and missed the World Cup 2002. One infamous example for the Dutch in international football was a particular comment made by Ronald Koeman as a PSV-player. In 1988 he called a tackle of team-mate Hans Gillhaus on Jean Tigana of Bordeaux "top-class" ('klasse') with as a result that de UEFA suspended Koeman for the semi-final return against another Spanish side, Real Madrid.