Spaghetti Weston: McKennie at Juventus

Discussion in 'Yanks Abroad' started by hokeydokey, Jul 7, 2016.

  1. golazo68

    golazo68 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 21, 2004
    Brazil
    I am still trying to wrap my head around the arguments here that boldly claim a move to Tottenham (3rd in the table currently if we use PPG in the best league in the world) would be some sort humongous step down from Juventus (5th in table currently) and also when Juventus barely finished 4th last year.
     
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  2. madvillain

    madvillain Member+

    Aug 28, 2011
    Club:
    Brooklyn Knights
    because there are more moving indicators than just "current place in current world league".

    Juve is one of the most prestigious clubs in the world. The training grounds, culture of winning and overall Italian soccer discipline (usually) produces a UCL final 8 contender and domestic contender if not outright favorite. For the players, they are huge celebs, part of the coolest club around, they live and train in Italy as rich young athletes -- which is hard to beat, even for London.

    And what are Spurs to this? An also ran in the EPL that is a 3rd banana in their own home city. They pay well. People can see you on TV. Maybe you can compete for a top 4 or a FA Cup once every 5 years.

    There are clubs Weston should consider for myriad reasons. There are clubs he should not. Unless Spurs want to pay Weston 2x what anybody else will, I really see no reason that we or he would prefer them. I mean money talks, but Tottenham has nothing compared to Juve in the soccer world that a player or fan seeks.
     
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  3. theboogeyman

    theboogeyman Member+

    Jun 21, 2010
    #15378 theboogeyman, Jan 19, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2022
    Because a good situation or club is about more than 1/2 season of games.

    Juventus is in a down period, but they’re 3-4 decent signings away from getting right back into the Serie A race. Hell, Dest and Chris Richards could really help them, and they could probably be signed for 40 million dollars total.

    Tottenham hasn’t won anything in a few decades, and has a recent history of locking guys into long term contracts below market rate and refusing to sell them, while they kept on not winning. Eriksen, Alderweireld, Kane, Danny Rose are all guys who wanted out so they could win more and/or make more money, but Tottenham wouldn’t sell them.

    there’s a lot of prestige in America to being the 4th-6th best team in the EPL, but it’s nowhere close to the top of the European club food chain. Tottenham might offer a raise in the short term, and might even be more likely to make champions league next year, but they’re much less likely to win big trophies over the next 5-7 years, and much more likely to hold him hostage if he proves to be worthy of a move to a club like Bayern or Real Madrid.

    so I wouldn’t call it a big step down, but I would say it’s more or less a lateral move that would limit his future opportunities.
     
  4. golazo68

    golazo68 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 21, 2004
    Brazil
    You agree with me in that it is not a humungous step down. That was my point.

    But come again about the last part?

    You are saying a World Class or near World Class player at Tottenham can't get signed by any World Class club? I disagree.

    And if the thrust of the last part was to say that a very good player can't become a near-World Class or World Class player by playing at Tottenham- I would disagree with that as well (witness Bale, Modric)
     
  5. golazo68

    golazo68 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 21, 2004
    Brazil
    #15380 golazo68, Jan 19, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2022
    Huh....I guess this is what they were saying at Man U since 2012?

    No team in Italy is intimidated by playing in Turin anymore. Just like Man U,
    those days are gone.

    Sorry man...unless someone is just enamored with Italy, most young players
    would pick London and its nightlife over Turin any day of the week. We aren't talking Rome here.

    You can always get the Italian girlfriend and fly here in (to London)

    And what was Man City before Pep. And Liverpool before Klopp. They totally upped those clubs stature again.

    And what has Man U been since Ferguson left? As they say in the investment world, past performance is not......

    History is nice, but the baggage of having been 'a great club' can be as negative a thing as positive.

    - Speed of league (better for his development)
    - Lifestyle
    - Friends in London
    - Play Man City, Chelsea, Liverpool 6 times (and likely more) a year
    - Conti

    ...just to list a few reasons

    Juventus got destroyed by Chelsea in the CL. They finished 4th last year and are currently 5th. Chiesa won't play for 12 months (at least).

    This Juve team will need to undergo a full renovation to get anywhere near their past glories, so whatever the perceived gap is between the 2 sides (straight up, I think Tottenham is just as good as Juve right now, if not better), there is a good amount of risk at staying at Juve as well.

    For the next 2 1/2 years, it's a toss-up to me which club will perform better. And I think the speed/quality of the Prem is better for his development. But if he stays at Juve, and can improve the speed of his game consistently in the slower paced Italian league, I guess that can work too. But I think he has a better shot of doing that in the Prem.
     
  6. Shaster

    Shaster Member+

    Apr 13, 1999
    El Cerrito, CA, USA
    I think Milan is better place than Turin.
     
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  7. RecLeague Super Sub

    Fulham
    United States
    Jun 5, 2019
    you’re comparing Manchester United, who hasn’t won their league in 10 years, to Juventus, who until LAST season, won their league title 9 times in a row? Let’s give it a little more than 1-2 seasons of less than stellar results before we pretend Juventus is a has-been, mid-table punching bag for other Serie A sides.

    “Speed of league (better for his development)”

    McKennie’s game has grown leaps and bounds in Italy in just 1.5 seasons, and has made him/will make him a top-market commodity. I think his development is just fine without Tottenham (who will really lower his value when the losses really pile up and they inevitably choke as they do throughout their history). Bale’s Tottenham got like 97 points one season, and didn’t Modric’s Spurs compete for the title. This current Spurs side, who is about to lose their 3 best players? Not so much.

    “- Lifestyle”
    Have you even been to Italy? Lifestyle, especially for rich people like him, is fairly nice, I imagine. If London is better, I imagine not by much.

    “- Friends in London”
    Who? CP? 1 friend? Quite a big life-decision to make, especially for a 3rd fiddle London team, just to hang with Puli.

    “- Play Man City, Chelsea, Liverpool 6 times (and likely more) a year”
    who will kick Tottenhams ass more frequently than not. He should end up
    On one of those teams you listed before he joins Spurs.

    “- Conti”
    Who will be gone before you can bat an eye.
     
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  8. golazo68

    golazo68 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 21, 2004
    Brazil
    Who said Juve are or will be a mid-table punching bag? Not me. The discussion is about winning the league. Again, those ridiculously high Juve expectations.

    You paint a worst-case scenario for Spurs, when they are already showing great improvement until Conti's leadership and a real contender for a Champions League spot.

    If they bring in a couple top players this window (which is better odds than not), they will have a really, really solid team. They bring in Vlahovic, they will be strong- even if Kane leaves in summer. Son will stay.

    You are correct that McKennie's game has grown leaps and bounds in last 1.5 years. I think the odds are better to continue that growth in a league that is both fast and better quality.

    Ah, you are showing your Spurs-hate

    Spent a ton of time all over Europe last 25 years. Heard a lot of young people
    talk about moving to London- from every country since forever.

    Never heard 1 person EVER mention their dream was to move to Turin!

    London is the financial, fashion, style, media....you-name-it capital of England.

    Turin....well, they make cars there.

    I guess some Ukrainian or Bulgaria girls will move to Turin when they marry an Italian.

    I've been to Italy many times. It is lovely. But it definitely not where most 23 year old non-Italian Euro rich dudes move, and ESPECIALLY not Turin.

    Like most European cities, I am sure Turin has its charms.

    Again, past performance does not predict future results.

    And this is also Wes' next best challenge....to go against the best in the world.

    Yes, I'd be happy if he joined one of the those 3 also

    Juve fired Pirlo in the summer because he finished 4th and 'only' made it to the Round of 16 in Champions League. And he won the league Cup. So you think Allegri has some great job security, eh?

    The expectations at Juve are out of whack. I think it is a coin flip as to who stays longer and since Conti just joined in November, the pressure is less on him this season. Tottenham fans would be fine with 4th. Would Juve fans be just as happy with 4th? Highly unlikely.
     
  9. RecLeague Super Sub

    Fulham
    United States
    Jun 5, 2019
    I don’t care about Allegri’s status. The way Wes is playing, he will walk into the starting 11 for any manager Juve brings in. my point is Conte is not a reason to say Wes should join a club, when he (and most managers frankly) do not stay 2 seasons at the same club.
    And I do not hate Spurs. I just know their history.nothing in it points towards future success, business acumen from Levy, or player development for Wes.
    It would be a lateral move at best, and even then, at least Juventus has world-wide name recognition and prestige, even when the club is struggling currently. Tottenham? Not so much.
     
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  10. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leicester City FC
    Should we move on from the Spurs vs. Juventus debate? I don't feel like we have covered much new ground in multiple attempts.

    Someone feel free to add my summary:

    Arguments for staying:
    • Historic/massive club that will turn things around sooner than later.
    • Much bigger club than Spurs, has better chance at trophies and deeper Champions League runs.
    • He's in a great situation and improving and learning.
    • Spurs is run by Levy who has not always shown himself to be brilliant.
    • Kane may leave after the season and he will be very tough to replace.
    • Unclear how long Conte will stay at Spurs or how much they will spend.
    • Some here feel Spurs is a disaster.
    Arguments for Spurs not being a train wreck:
    • No one is saying it's an upgrade, just not a disastrous career move. Some would say it's sideways at this point.
    • The PL is arguably the best top to bottom league in the world and clearly has the largest global audience. The money imbalance has grown this season.
    • Serie A as a whole is not what it has been in the past - they don't have the money to compete with England for top players.
    • Therefore, his day in day out competition will be higher.
    • He's not good enough to go to teams like City or Real Madrid or if acquired he might rotate heavily. Worst case he could be Van De Beeked - he needs to go where he will play every game (argument for Spurs vs. bigger clubs).
    • He will make more money.
    • He won't lose visibility to other big clubs as he progresses as a player.
    • His stamina and abilities seem well suited for the PL where his technical shortcomings may be less of an issue.
    • It's not clear how Juventus is going to turn their debt around.
    • While it's not clear how/whether Levy and Spurs will spend much money to support the club, it's unlikely that they will allow Spurs to slip further. Spurs have made more money than Arsenal recently although they also carry debt.
    Anything to add?
     
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  11. russ

    russ Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Canton,NY
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If he goes to Spurs ,he won't be at Liverpool in two years.Thats bad.

    He can move from Juve to Liverpool in two years.Thats good.
     
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  12. Shaster

    Shaster Member+

    Apr 13, 1999
    El Cerrito, CA, USA
    If Spurs puts tons of cash, Wes should just spurt for Spurs.
     
  13. Nastrabrahmus

    Nastrabrahmus Member

    Mar 29, 2012
    San Diego, CA
    He’s not moving so this argument seems silly at this point.
     
  14. schrutebuck

    schrutebuck Member+

    Jul 26, 2007
    Put me on the side that would love to see McKennie at Juventus for a long-time, hopefully winning trophies.

    McKennie is one of the lowest earning regulars in the squad. I think only Bentancur is as low. If he keeps up the current level and Juventus finish the season successfully, then my guess is that they will revisit it.
     
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  15. golazo68

    golazo68 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 21, 2004
    Brazil
    Anyone know how Juve treats players personal promotional rights?

    For Wes, that money might be entering significant territory. It would interesting to understand who gets what.

    If they want to keep him, they would be silly not to offer a substantial salary increase right at close of season, and indicate it well before then.
     
  16. theboogeyman

    theboogeyman Member+

    Jun 21, 2010
    I’m saying that Tottenham is extremely hesitant to sell players who want out, and have legit interest from wealthier clubs. You mention bale and Modric, who were both sold 8+ years ago, but ignore the multiple sagas since then that led to players not winning anything, not earning what they could have on the market, and leaving when they were past their prime. This happened to Eriksen, Alderweireld, and Rose, and it’s happening to Kane right now. Are you a Tottenham fan? I don’t see how what I’m saying is the least bit controversial.
     
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  17. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    ^THIS
     
  18. oscar_in_fw

    oscar_in_fw Member+

    Jul 24, 2007
    Fort Worth
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They may have to revisit sooner than they would like to if the likes of Tottenham et al offer him stupid money wages and transfer fees to try to get him.
     
  19. golazo68

    golazo68 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 21, 2004
    Brazil
    That’s a great summary.

    I would only add one more point about off-field business, endorsements, etc. This is not insignificant for some players- either in terms of money, prestige or career plan. Also, what clubs require as a ‘cut/fee’ of their endorsements and other income.

    I have no idea where McKennie stands on this, but some of the young up-n-comers are very cognizant of this, have big plans inside and outside of football (financial advisors that get them involved in other business). Wes is very charismatic guy and smart- it wouldn’t surprise me if he is examining this carefully.

    Not to open another can of worms, but London is absolutely world-class city (with few peers)
    when it comes to building your personal brand.
     
  20. CyphaPSU

    CyphaPSU Member+

    Mar 16, 2003
    Not Far
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As long as he's playing and they do not become an utter dumpster fire, I'd like to see him remain for a while playing for one of the world's most famous clubs.
     
  21. Dante

    Dante Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 19, 1998
    Binghamton, NY
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Juve is generally the opposite of Napoli, they let the player control his image rights. Juve will try to get them deals with sponsors they have, but they can still have whatever sponsor they like. Napoli likes to control the image rights 100%. It's caused issues in the past with them and players.
     
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  22. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Any idea why Napoli wanted total control?
     
  23. Dante

    Dante Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 19, 1998
    Binghamton, NY
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's just how Aurelio De Laurentiis roles. He's a prominent film producer and brings some of that business experience to his role at Napoli. I'm sure it's also because he/Napoli make some money off of those rights as well.
     
  24. TimB4Last

    TimB4Last Member+

    May 5, 2006
    Dystopia
    Most would say rolls, but roles suits De Laurentiis very nicely. :thumbsup:
     
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