Soccer, Sports and Politics - Part Deux

There are a lot of critique to guys like Valdano who makes the stupid statement that "This doesn't happen in Europe" or "This is different in Europe (meaning better)" related to a lot of things (football in this case), that in fact, it happens or are not better, so there is a response for them.

 

He always rubbed me the wrong way.

 

Some countries are obsessed with racism while others barely even think about it. Obviously Argentina falls in the latter, while most of north-western Europe the former. I think that's what he's trying to highlight. But that's also what makes these cross-border discussions challenging. Better to just not bring it up, especially on social media.

 

Definitely better to simply say, "we apologize" with no "but" added on. Own it and end it.

 

What does "obsessed with racism" even mean? What a ********ing weird thing to even say. So racism being prevalent and being addressed is being obsessed with it?
Actually, Argentina could seriously do with some attention to it as well.

 

A country associated with Nazis fleeing Germany after the war? Surely they can't have a problem with racism!

 

Can't have racism if you only have one race!-
<taps forehead>

 

I'm pointing out that their actions simply reinforce well-entrenched stereotypes about Argentina: a stereotype explicitly referenced by one of the French players in his response to what happened and a stereotype that has long existed in American popular culture and exported to other countries, as illustrated in the Simpsons clip I posted.

As such, the Argentine players need to be aware that their comments and responses are feeding an already existing stereotype, further illustrating why they need to own it and end it, as I said above, and not add more fuel to the fire.

 

There are a lot of people who would understand why the song is racist, but the constant "Argentina is nazi refugee" on social media get people defensive and make it hard for them to understand it.
There even are people who believes the song is not racist because calls out the frenchs (and europe in general) colonialism/imperialism over Africa and doesn't know that the song is the same speech the racist in France/Europe use.

 

FTFY

Why?

 

In funnier news

Y’all heard about Kyle Walker situation? Lemme gist you 👇🏽 pic.twitter.com/wzQAm4lxE9

— O W U L A 🧔🏻‍♂️ (@_owula) July 19, 2024

 

ASF, you have gone up in my respect for you as a person. You have stood up against racism while explaining the culture very well.

 

OK, I'm going to start by saying you obviously know more about Argentina than I do, but that you might not be 100% objective on the subject matter (can anyone really be 100% objective about their own country or culture?). My understanding of Argentina on the topic at hand is derived from academic articles, particularly as they relate to eugenics - a discipline that was historically very closely tied to my field of academic focus. I say that to indicate my bias, which means I will also not be 100% objective.

I'll start with this part of your quote.

The Simpsons often took complicated cultural topics and boiled them down to simple "memes" that nonetheless got the basic point across. They "had fun" with the French in the first season in particular, when Bart went there as an exchange student. My favorite moment in that was when he was explaining his situation of forced labor to the French policeman. The policeman overlooked the child labor/slavery that Bart was telling him about and only became concerned when Bart said they were putting antifreeze in the wine, which the policeman declares that to be serious (unlike everything else Bart told him - the translation provided in the clip is actually wrong - the policeman never says "crime", just that that part of what Bart said was serious)! I find it funny because the French really take their food and drink seriously - many times I've seen people become outraged over food/drink related things, where other things that might enrage Americans or the British are greeted with a shrug of the shoulders and corresponding vocalization and facial expression.





The point is The Simpsons often reveal "truths" without them necessarily being "the truth." Importantly, you cannot separate a topic like racism from the cultural and historical contexts. Short clips in The Simpsons allude to such things and maybe only touch on one or two aspects that are embedded within the cultural knowledge - such as Nazis going to Argentina.

Argentina's cultural and historical contexts related to racism (and homophobia, which is an overlooked part of the song the players sang specifically in reference to Mbappe, at least according to the lyrics I obtained online) are chronologically deep and intersect with both Italian fascists and Nazi Germany.

Specifically, as I'm sure you are well aware, is the eugenics movement in the 1920s and 1930s which was big in Argentina, and incorporated at a government level. The eugenics movement "intersected" heavily with the Italian eugenic movement and the Argentinian eugenics leaders did collaborate and spend time with the Nazi eugenic leaders in Germany. But, at that time in Argentina, the eugenics movement was more focused on social issues, including homosexuality, than it was "race" because Argentina had already "Europeanized" itself quite extensively. As such, given the large European immigration that occurred in the 1800s and early 1900s, combined with the "fascist-friendly" governments that Argentina had in the 1930s or so, it was a welcoming place for German and Italian fascists to escape to; the social and racial ideas of the time were shared by the various countries and politically they had connections. Mind you, they weren't the only ones with the eugenic practices, of course - but our focus is Argentina, not those other countries. Yes, Jews went there as well, as did other groups. But the important thing is that culturally Argentina was a peer in various social aspects with Italy and Germany (not in all of the aspects, just some which related to racism, homophobia, etc.).

It is in this backdrop that three years ago Argentinian president Alberto Fernandez could say: "The Mexicans came from the Indians, the Brazilians came from the jungle, but we Argentines came from the ships. And they were ships that came from Europe." His comment, of course, completely ignored the indigenous peoples in Argentina, in addition to the 9% or so of Argentinians with African descent (not recent African descent, but much older African descent, if I remember correctly). But that comment just three years ago highlights a cultural mindset that was developed over many decades, if not more than a century - unlike other South American countries, "Argentinians are European".

As I said earlier, we are all products of our culture. Notions of racism in any culture are complex. For New Zealand you cannot separate modern racism from "The Great New Zealand Myth", which originated in the early 20th century and was promoted nationwide, even though it was false, as a way of helping to justify the European colonization of NZ. The Great NZ Myth is not the cause of racism in NZ, but it provides historical context for it. In Argentina's case, the Nazi-aspect is not the cause of racism, but nonetheless connects to Argentina's cultural history of racism. You suggest it has a non-relevant or minor connection, whereas as an anthropologist I would suggest that it nonetheless helps shed light on important cultural and historical factors that are potentially more directly relevant. For example, you had mentioned that Argentina already had a fairly good sized German population. The Nazis did not invent racism in Germany, they fed off what already existed, much like the orange fascist and MAGA have done here in the USA. As such, when the Europeans of many stripes arrived in Argentina, they likely brought racist ideas with them, some of which were borrowed from America or was made popular by Americans.

This is a rather ridiculous argument, one that suggests I unintentionally hit a nerve - which I have nonetheless found informative, but now regret doing.

First, you are telling me that because France and America are both homophobic, I am not allowed to point out homophobia in Russia or among Mexican soccer supporters. I would say bullshit. I have every right to do so and a responsibility to do so. You might not like it, but that's on you, not me.

Second, I am half French and half American. As such, I would argue I am indeed French - the choice of words on your part, saying "if you are indeed French" is exactly what the racist Argentinian soccer players did. Now, many in France do not consider me to be French, many suggest I am more English, but that is another story and one I am happy to discuss at another time. The fact that I am indeed French and also American has nothing to do at all with accusing other nations of racism when they act in racist ways. That's an absolutely ridiculous suggestion. Argentina has a very long history of racism. That fact is not altered simply because France has a long history of racism or because America was arguably founded with racism as one of its building blocks (and quite arguably a very significant building block, despite what Florida textbooks might say).

I am half French and half American. Both of my countries are racist. That does not mean I am therefore ineligible to point out racism when it happens or discuss the causes of it. If we can only discuss racism if our culture is not racist, then pretty much no one could ever speak out against racism.


tl;dr - if you want to explore the causes of racism in Argentina, you do have to look back through Argentina's history and deal with the past, because the past provides the foundation for the present. Part of Argentina's past is the eugenics movement, which has ties to both Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany. Argentina's players are very racist and very homophobic. I say that as a Frenchman and as an American.


With that, I think it wise for me to exit this discussion because it will likely become too heated.

 

Enzo’s Father: "Enzo feels bad, he didn't mean it, he already apologized on social media and to his Chelsea teammates.

But his teammate in Chelsea didn't even ask him to apologize or anything, he could've contacted him and asked for it, but no, he straight went to social media… https://t.co/bOM4JhpYKf

— CFCDaily (@CFCDaily) July 18, 2024

Aah yes, the real victim here is Enzo and the real villains are his evil French teammates who did not respond to his racism in the proper way. Amazing.

 

Argentina should have followed the US' example with the Nazi war criminals in Huntsville Al!

 

Fantastic post.

 

It's not a sidetrack, ASF. It's part of who they are. Sounders is trying in vain to tell you that.