Soccer metrics to evaluate players

Discussion in 'San Jose Earthquakes' started by mjlee22, Dec 26, 2009.

  1. falvo

    falvo Member+

    Mar 27, 2005
    San Jose & Florence
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
  2. mjlee22

    mjlee22 Quake & Landon fan

    Nov 24, 2003
    near Palo Alto, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I found this very interesting article on Loran Vrielink, who is a tactics consultant for professional footballers (since 2016). He uses video analysis to work remotely one-on-one with players, providing the kind of tactical education that most coaches don't do.
     
    markmcf8 repped this.
  3. NedZ

    NedZ Member+

    May 19, 2001
    Los Gatos
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    https://www.americansocceranalysis.com/home/2021/7/10/where-goals-come-from


    Regardless of philosophy, style, principles, and game model, a club’s on-field strategy should focus on maximizing goals scored and minimizing goals conceded. Goals win points, points are how clubs reach their objectives, and clubs that reach their objectives win fans and make money. The “Where Goals Come From” project is about how to create goals (or prevent them). By breaking soccer down to basics, we aim to provide clubs a clear roadmap to success.

    Key points:

    • A club needs a common language to talk about the strategy and principles the team will use to score and prevent goals. That’s what the “where goals come from” framework aims to provide.
    • The framework can also provide context to expected goals (xG) and other types of probability models in soccer.
    • A detailed understanding of how a club plans to maximize its goal differential can help people in a variety of roles understand how their decisions fit into the strategy.
     
  4. JazzyJ

    JazzyJ BigSoccer Supporter

    Jun 25, 2003
    #529 JazzyJ, Feb 18, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2021
    I have issues with this kind of glorification of the "progressive pass". The problem is that it doesn't account for the fact that a "progressive pass" is inherently higher risk and leads to loss of possession more frequently, at which point the other team has more time to score, by progressive pass or otherwise.

    I just skimmed the article but I didn't see an analysis of progressive pass goals vs. all goals for and against, against PPG. I see progressive pass for and against vs. PPG, but the teams that score more goals are going to have more progressive pass goals for and less progressive pass goals against because they're scoring more goals in general and letting in less goals in general.

    Just at quick glance I don't see a strong correlation between (% progressive pass goals / all goals) to PPG. For example, Vancouver had a higher % progressive pass goals than Supporter's Shield winner Philly. That of course could be an outlier, but it didn't look all that convincing at first glance.

    Stahre was a coach who really liked to play more direct. He turned his nose up at "passes sideways and backwards". And that year Magnus was springing "progressive passes" left and right, with a shockingly low success rate. And we were terrible that year.
     
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  5. NedZ

    NedZ Member+

    May 19, 2001
    Los Gatos
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
  6. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just as long as he's not also a therapist.

    / ArrestedDevelopment reference
     
  7. NedZ

    NedZ Member+

    May 19, 2001
    Los Gatos
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
  8. markmcf8

    markmcf8 Member+

    Oct 18, 1999
    Vancouver, WA, USA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  9. bsman

    bsman Member+

    May 30, 2001
    MadCity
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    ...but, do they have an enormous drum or bar?
     
    markmcf8 repped this.
  10. podrinje

    podrinje Member+

    Borussia Dortmund
    Bosnia and Herzegovina
    Oct 10, 2013
    Bay Area!
    Club:
    Alemannia Aachen
    Nat'l Team:
    Bosnia-Herzegovina
    I think an underrated "perk" has to be the added entertainment feature of watching airplanes landing and taking-off from the airport runway strip in the event that the actual on-field action is less thrilling.
     
    bsman repped this.
  11. NedZ

    NedZ Member+

    May 19, 2001
    Los Gatos
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
  12. mjlee22

    mjlee22 Quake & Landon fan

    Nov 24, 2003
    near Palo Alto, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hey look, you can take a MOOC on sports performance analytics from U of Michigan’s Stefan Szymanski, co-author of Soccernomics

     
  13. don gagliardi

    don gagliardi Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    Feb 28, 2004
    san jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Pseudoscience 101. :)
     
  14. QuakeAttack

    QuakeAttack Member+

    Apr 10, 2002
    California - Bay Area
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I picked a bad day to stop sniffing diesel fumes!
     
  15. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Szymanski is a complete dumb***... he said in 2015 that MLS is a pyramid scheme and that the league is likely to collapse and die sooner rather than later. All because he's from the UK and doesn't understand how American sports league franchise expansion fees work (he thinks expansion fees are "profit" for the league, not compensation to the existing owners for dilution of their ownership stake)... How is it possible for a sports author and professor at a prestigious school like U of Michigan to not grasp such a basic concept? Who knows, that's why I said he's a complete dumb***...

    Soccernomics: So what is the MLS business model?
    23, 04, 15 by Stefan Szymanski

    MLS starts to sound like a pyramid scheme. You can fund a loss-making enterprise from the entrance fees of new buyers for a while, but without making money, the only reason for doing this would be glory, not profits. Americans constantly tell me that owners of sport franchises in the US will insist on making money. If that really is the case, then I predict that MLS will collapse, and probably sooner rather than later.


    'Soccernomics' author says MLS' collapse is imminent. His argument is awful.

    There's a lot of missing information in Stefan Szymanski's calculations.
     
  16. Earthshaker

    Earthshaker BigSoccer Supporter

    Sep 12, 2005
    The hills above town
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Most soccer leagues can only dream of having the ownership stability that MLS has.
     
    xbhaskarx and LongTimeQuakesFan'74 repped this.
  17. mjlee22

    mjlee22 Quake & Landon fan

    Nov 24, 2003
    near Palo Alto, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I read all of that Szymanski 2015 article you pointed to, plus a long time ago I read Soccernomics. Szymanski was largely focused on Premier League teams, so maybe back in 2015 he didn’t understand how tax advantageous a major league team can be to US billionaires with lots of gains to offset. But regardless, I think his 2015 article is pitch perfect. The major attraction for MLS owners is still funding the league with franchise fees and the appreciation of their assets in a closed system. That’s why the pyramid is still going strong.
     
  18. JazzyJ

    JazzyJ BigSoccer Supporter

    Jun 25, 2003
    Szymanski may not be a "dumba**" as x called him, but I think he's an incurable europhile as are so, so many soccer fans, and as such, is unable to evaluate MLS fairly as something different than the euro models. For it to be a "pyramid scheme" you'd have to posit that MLS teams have no real value. But the stadiums, the growing audience, the improving quality of play, the big $ transfers of academy guys, etc., all demonstrate simply that it is a growing league, getting more and more successful each year.

    So piss off Stefan! :)
     
  19. don gagliardi

    don gagliardi Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    Feb 28, 2004
    san jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Yeah, how can someone be excited about 74k in Carolina one week and believe it’s all a pyramid scheme the next?
     
  20. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #545 xbhaskarx, Mar 17, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2022
    You know that does not surprise me at all, actually!

    So when MLS announces they're opening up four expansion spots, and 12 different potential ownership groups of multi-billionaires apply from 12 different cities, the people who unlike you or Szymanski actually get to see the league's books before they plop down multiple hundreds of millions of dollars in expansion fees (plus stadiums, training facilities, academies, etc.), it's because they're falling for a pyramid scheme? Okay.

    Even RSL, the least desirable MLS market as the 47th largest metropolitan area in the US, had two big ownership groups interested in buying (and of course the previous owner didn't want to sell, he was forced out by MLS) that ended up combining to do so.

    All way dumber than you and Szymanski, two people who spend their time posting on the internet.
    Pretty much no difference from Theranos investors... can't wait for the miniseries about the scam that is MLS!

    When does the pyramid scheme collapse? When MLS stops being a "closed system"? So that will be "sooner rather than later"? Who exactly is going to force MLS to stop being a closed system soon, can you explain how that will go down?

    Every major sports league in the US, NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, WNBA, NWSL, USL, etc. has expansion franchise fees AND is a "closed league".... so are they ALL pyramid schemes that will soon collapse??

    That's literally just the American sports league model. No league ISN'T a closed system and it's actually the ones that say they will be an "open league" that end up collapsing (NASL 2011–2017 version) or seem headed in that direction (NISA 2019–), weirdly without ever even actually switching to an open system, it almost just seems like a curse or a desperation move to get in the good graces of the two dozen internet weirdos who are obsessed with crapping on "closed leagues".

    [​IMG]

    Sure looks like a league that's about to "collapse... sooner rather than later"!



    Nashville Soccer Club Surpasses 20,000 Season Ticket Member Threshold for GEODIS Park
     
  21. mjlee22

    mjlee22 Quake & Landon fan

    Nov 24, 2003
    near Palo Alto, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Guys, remember that a pyramid scheme is where the money put in by the newest investor, who is starting at the bottom, flows to the earlier investors. The income stream may look like revenue to the early investors, but it is really just investment fees flowing uphill.

    MLS expansion fees are the same deal. And when Garber ratchets up those fees, MLS franchises appear to increase in value. But the fees are super-inflated when you compare them with the price of clubs in other leagues. E.g., how could InterMiami or Houston be worth $700M (I think that was the latest valuation), which could be 1/3 the price of Chelsea?

    According to that guy who co-founded Zappos, MLS did not provide him an open book of club finances. He said he couldn’t understand the finances at all, the numbers didn’t make sense, and MLS did not reveal the broadcast revenue that was coming from SUM.

    It will be interesting to see what happens to MLS franchise values once the league stops expanding. I’m sure that’s about when Garber will retire, leaving the $300-400M annual revenue shortfall to the next CEO to solve.
     
  22. mjlee22

    mjlee22 Quake & Landon fan

    Nov 24, 2003
    near Palo Alto, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Anyone think this book will be worth reading?

     
  23. mjlee22

    mjlee22 Quake & Landon fan

    Nov 24, 2003
    near Palo Alto, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  24. don gagliardi

    don gagliardi Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    Feb 28, 2004
    san jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Hell, no. Where’s the dramatic arc?
     

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