Soccer, CTE and football

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by SeminoleTom, Aug 8, 2017.

  1. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    #101 Timon19, Jul 31, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2018
    You mean the guy who repped me for this post, which is still visible on the (EDIT) previous page?

    (damn pageturn)
     
  2. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As far as using “whataboutism”, it’s history predates the current popularity quite a bit and was commonly used around the world in some form or another in response to the Soviet Union’s attempts to discredit Western criticism by pointing to issues in the Western world.

    If you’d prefer, we can call it an appeal to hypocrisy ot tu quoque. Regardless, the meaning is the same. An attempt to discredit a valid argument by claiming the person making the argument isn’t being consistent.
     
  3. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    Its modern sense is explicitly meant to shut down conversation, too.
     
  4. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No.. it is meant to discredit the use of logical fallacies. If that shuts down the discussion, it is most likely because the person doesn’t have a valid cointer-argument.

    On the other hand, if you were actually directing the author to ask RU how they handle the situation, I’d point you to the article where the author addresses that other sports require the player to leave the field to be assessed for a concussion. I’m also not sure that is the intent of the article. It’s more an opinion piece saying that someone in NZ soccer or FIFA needs to address the issue..
     
  5. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    Horseshit.

    Good for them. That's a useful thing to point out.

    Great. NZ soccer can implement rules similar to RU, which I think would be a decent idea. They have sufficient autonomy to do that, generally speaking, and I doubt greatly that FIFA would sanction them for experimenting in such a way.
     
  6. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Curious...

    Did you read the article, or make a knee jerk response based on the url? Your response here would seem to indicate the latter..

    What you’re asking for is generally what the author wants to happen.. Someone at NZ Football or FIFA to implement procedures to manage head injuries.. The first part of that involves them acknowledging that it is an issue, which is also addresses in the article..
     
  7. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    Is it?

    Saw "New Zealand", read the quoted bit, decided to reiterate my previous suggestion, which has been rather well-accepted in the entirety of the Union-playing world.

    Good!

    Neat.
     
  8. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Every contact sport has an issue and will have issues going forward around concussions. Obviously tackling sports like the different Rugby codes and American football are going to have a bigger issue. The point I was making, is that at least Rugby is trying to do SOMETHING about it. Is it enough? Clearly no, but they are doing something. When was the last time you saw a referee in a top level soccer match force a player to be removed for a suspected head injury? When was the last time you saw a team prevent a player returning to the field because of a suspected head injury? When was the last time you heard an announcer, other than Taylor Twellman, call out a team for allowing a player back on to the field who was obviously concussed?

    Sounds like you watch a lot more Rugby than I do, but everyone of those things I have seen in Rugby matches in the last few years.It is possible to both criticize Football's approach to concussions while also looking for other sports with even higher instances to do more.

    And yes I did rep you I rep ideas and statements not people.
     
  9. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    I've seen all of those things in soccer multiple times in the last year, and most of them just last month. I very rarely hear an announcer in the Southern Hemisphere criticize a coach or ref for allowing a "knocked" player to continue (which still DOES happen). They also miss cases that are clear to the audience and the announcers, but rarely is there a Twellmanlike response. It's just usually a comment about the player "being in some trouble". Maybe once or twice a season does anyone press the issue on a particular case.

    Some referees in soccer are clearly not interested, and many clubs still aren't. I'd support changing that along the lines of RU.
     
  10. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Vehemently disagree.
     
  11. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    Ok.
     
  12. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I mean, it's a rhetorical trope. It can be used in any number of ways.
     
  13. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    And IME, most of the practitioners are using it to try to end discussion, as if the investigation of potential hypocrisy is itself invalid.
     
  14. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not my experience, but mine isn't any more valid than yours so fair enough.
     
  15. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Really? Guess we are going to have to agree to disagree, I honestly can't remember seeing that once during this world cup. Not trying to play gotcha but is there a specific moment that stuck out for you of this happening?

    One I specifically remember was England Costa Rica where an English player, I believe Loftus Cheek, took an elbow to the chin right at the start and was down for about three minutes, got up noticeably wobbly, walked off the field, had some water sprayed in his face, and then ran back on. That was one of dozens of those incidents that I saw this summer. Now in their defense both Ian Darke, and Aly Wagner called out the situation when it happened but only briefly and I didn't see any mention in the British Media

    I agree that I'd like to see soccer change to closer to the RU rules. The issue as I said in an earlier post is cheating is more readily accepted by fans, players, and officials in soccer. What happens the first time a coach has used all three subs and then a player complains to the ref of a head injury and asks to go off to be evaluated basically giving the coach a 4th substitute?
     
  16. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But then you'd get tired players faking concussion after the 3 regular substitutes had been used.
     
  17. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    Maybe. Doctors who do nothing but review video and observe players would be a useful bulwark against such shenanigans.
     
  18. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Smart. And having them be off the field while being reviewed (so their team plays with 10 men) certainly disincentives faking. Or, perhaps just stop the match, like they do for video replays.
     
  19. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Should be “easy” to prevent. Require an independent review of the player. If it is determined the player wasn’t concussed, treat it like using an ineligible player and the team forfeits the game with a 3-0 scoreline.
     
    Timon19 repped this.
  20. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You can fake concussion. How many fingers am I holding up?
    [​IMG]
     
  21. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It’s more conplicated than that. ;)

    You can also require any player go on a 10/15- day DL..
     
  22. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    Doesn't MLS do this already? I mean, not exactly that thing, but a retrospective "concussion protocol"?
     
  23. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think it is 6 days? I was addressing the issue of coaches “faking” head injuries to get extra subs. If a player has to miss the next game or two, then coaches will be hesitant to fake injuries just to get an extra player in.

    Of course, that might cause coaches to keep a player in with a head injury..
     
  24. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    That's where you need doctors with the respect of the teams and power.
     
  25. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So until the next match then :cool:
     

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