Are you saying this because head hits coincident to headers happen fairly often? Or because you believe the ball itself is providing sub-concussive hits? A soccer ball weighs 1 lb. or less, and it flexes on impact. The head weights 10-11 lbs. The accelerative force of a soccer ball on the head is minimal. Some of the articles linked are absurd. One recent one, quoting a doctor purporting to run a scientific study, claimed players head the ball an average of 6 to 12 times/game. Even at 6 times/game, that would be 120 headers in a game. My guess is it's closer to 15 headers / game. At the relevant ages for the latest study ("kids brains are developing faster, especially from 10 to 12), the averages are less than 2 headers per game per player. (in fact, 12/game might be reasonable, as a teamwide average rather than a per player average.) Yoshou, at this point, there is no actual evidence that soccer's CTE rates are any different from the general population. There is incredible evidence that football's rates of CTE are wildly off the chart. In terms of concussions, boys' soccer clusters with boys' and girls' basketball, and girls' field hockey and softball. If soccer concussion rates are considered concerning, then most sports will have to be banned. There is no evidence that the impact of a 1 lb ball on a 10 lb head is subconcussive. It may be, and I await genuine studies (not studies by people who think players head the ball 6 to 12 times/game.) Meanwhile, football concussion rates are more than 3 times higher than boys' soccer, with significant reason to believe they continue to be underreported, because despite protocols, there is a widespread feeling among the players themselves that they're supposed to play through big hits. And, in a setting where rates are substantially higher, there is reason to believe that the number of truly severe hits is vastly higher, just because of the nature of bell curves.
Actually, I gave Yoshou too much credit, by doing this by memory rather than going back to check the facts. He claimed soccer was highest next to football. While soccer having a high rate at all is entirely due to girls soccer, even girls soccer has a concussion rate roughly half of that of both football and hockey, and a third lower than lacrosse: http://www.headcasecompany.com/concussion_info/stats_on_concussions_sports Boys soccer is nowhere near any of those sports. Yoshou, you weren't even close to telling the truth.
Blacksun, one of the things to come out of the football studies is that dementia shows up at surprisingly early ages among American football players. In the oddly assembled sample of the study in that recent Guardian article (6 elderly soccer players with severe dementia, 4 of whom had CTE), there is an interesting datapoint that is suggestive as to whether this group developed CTE because of soccer. That is that the average age of onset of dementia was 63 - which is pretty much the average age of onset for the general population. That suggests that all they've done is found a few scattered cases of normally developing dementia and shown that CTE frequently co-varies with dementia. Keep in mind that the rate of CTE in the normal elderly population is 12%. So seizing on 6 people already known to have dementia, and showing that 2/3rds of them also have CTE isn't a very robust statistical result with predictive power.
The 12% figure in my post above is from Blacksun's Guardian article. But I don't think it's accurate and would have deleted it, but I missed the edit deadline by 1 minute. More to the point, here is the NY Times synopsis of a study of head impacts in football lineman: >Linemen knock heads on most plays, and those who study brain trauma say the accumulation of seemingly benign, non-violent blows — rather than head-jarring concussions alone — probably causes C.T.E. >Data compiled by researchers at Stanford showed that one college offensive lineman sustained 62 of these hits in a single game. Each one came with an average force on the player’s head equivalent to what you would see if he had driven his car into a brick wall at 30 m.p.h. That's what we're talking about as "subconcussive hits." Does anyone genuinely think a 1 lb soccer ball, impacting a player's head 5 or 6 times/game is even relevant next to what's involved in football?
"only 1lb hitting 10lb head" ..... really? The force that a 1 lb ball has when kicked by a pro player is roughly 1305 Newtons (43.5kg x 30m/s = 1305 N) which is roughly 293 pounds of force ... that's more force than close range punches in Karate and not far off common "reverse" punches used in Karate. You really going to say that once or twice a week taking anywhere from 5-12 of those to the head isn't significant? Ooooooooo K. Yes it's relevant. It's not about the comparison to the NFL, but rather, that what happens in soccer DOES cause the same issues. http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/14/health/brain-damage-dementia-cte-soccer-football-study/index.html
Jeebus, I transposed when putting it in. YAY for doing it in a hurry. Thanks for the catch and pointing it out. Should have just used the info from the Imperial College London: A ball kicked by an amateur soccer player delivers roughly the same force to the head as an amateur boxer does. A professional soccer player's force is roughly double that of the amateur player.
Girls play other sports as well and don't have similar rates of head trauma in those sports. It is also unclear how this information of yours alters the fact that after grid iron, soccer has the next highest rate of head trauma..
Any time someone hits their head against something, there is a risk of brain trauma. The more often it is done, the more likely it is to have happened. The human brain isn't anchored inside the skull and, as a result, it can, and does come in contact with the skull.. Most of the time, the damage is extremely minor and isn't repeated. However, in the case of soccer players, using the head is an important part of the sport, so players practice headers on a frequent basis and use their head in games. This repeated use of the head, while it might not result in a concussion, does have an effect on the brain and, in extreme cases, can result in CTE. Additionally, CTE does not require a person to actually have gotten a concussion at some point, even minor trauma can result in CTE if it happens frequently enough. You should watch games closer.. Heading a ball happens a lot more often than you think it does. I'm also sure they used a much broader definition of anytime the ball touched the head and not necessarily the more narrow forceful header tou're likely thinking of. With kids, it doesn't have to be as many times because their brains are still developing. Any trauma to the brain can impact how the brain develops in that area.. Kids are also less likely to have the proper form and technique that an older soccer player will have. At this point, there hasn't been a lot of study related to soccer and CTE. So it's not possible to say CTE in soccer players is greater, the same, or less than the general popukation. At this point, the studies have only indicated that soccer players have a higher rate of head trauma and that should translate into higher rates of CTE, but, again, it's not something that has gotten a lot of study. I'm still not entirely sure why you think that the increased rates being largely in girls' soccer means anything.. Some of that is likely due to societal differences between girls and boys that result in girls being more willing to report injuries and for adults to listen to their reports.. Yes.. grid irons rates are significantly higher.. This has already been stipulated and is immaterial to the discussion at hand..
I haven't seen this one yet: https://www.google.com/amp/www.tele...lls-laws-head-oblivion-concussion-expert/amp/ Basically the doctor that discovered CTE in American football also is saying there is risk with heading the ball in soccer. I trust this doctor a lot and the fact that he is a soccer fan is just an example of him not saying things just for the heck of it. World football needs to take a look quickly at changing the game. In America we've said that the NFL, with the CTE crisis, is a Neanderthal and behind the times. It looks like world football could have a similar problem. Oh and if you hadn't heard Aaron Hernandez had CTE.... roll eyes
I'll jump in here... Until we have evidence that soccer causes CTE, we shouldn't change the rules except for young kids. Soccer balls deform. Opponents, helmets don't. There is zero evidence that soccer players get dementia and CTE more than the general population. Those articles are the Football Industrial Complex trying to distract its marks by pointing a finger and bullying the new kid in town: soccer. Don't take the bait. Banning headers will be seen as an admission of guilt by the Football Industrial Complex. They will then push to have our sport banned. Don't be the Football Industrial Complex's useful idiot.
The Colorado Rapids just had a player retire due to concussion concerns. He was in his 30's so perhaps close to retirement anyway, but sounds like his brain is a concern. Name is Kevin Doyle, he is Irish.
Saw the news. I hope Doyle lives a long and healthy life. Did he have other concussions earlier in his career? Thinks like elbows to the head and head-to-head collisions? I've also a mini-concussion from going up for a header, getting undercut, the landing on my shoulder but getting some contact with ground with my head.
These are the symptoms of a Soccer player who has experienced head trauma. This was written by a doctor for a former athlete who was reapplying for law school after his soccer career. The consequences of head trauma are terrible!
If you have 10 minutes I'd encourage all to watch this. Its a good national geographic video. It's start out with the same perspective that many may have had-- soccer is a safe alternative to football. While soccer is safer there is becoming irrefutable evidence that the act of heading (heading and also missing the ball and colliding heads) leads to concussive and non-concussive hits to the head. I showed this to others at work and they had the same perception- they never would have thought the same issue we've heard for years with football is occurring with soccer. I'm fairly certain the occurrence is less than that of football but still something that happens enough to cause concern. http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/explorer/videos/a-blow-to-the-header/#.WczI17a3Qkc.facebook
Dr.Omalu, who founded CTE, grew up Nigeria thus is familiar with soccer has a different opinion.... see below and the National Geographic video I posted just above. In the link below he wants the game to continue but not the heading. The interesting thing is the topic of soccer and CTE is just starting. The Boston University institute that studies the deceased players is just beginning on soccer. The good news for soccer is the game can be modified to change the laws which would still keep the game in tact.... right? Meanwhile, football IMO, is a dead man walking. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...ussion-expert/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_fb#comments
Which is exactly why I'm worried about the Football Industrial Complex trying to transfer the heat on football to soccer through cynical demagoguery. Dr. Omalu is clearly a well-respected research doctor. He is clearly asking the right questions. Let's change the game if the answers to his questions tell us that we should. My anecdotal experience says that heading the ball does not cause concussions if you use proper technique. The concussions come from elbows, opponents' heads, and contact with the ground. Of course, my anecdotal ideas are anecdotal and I await the evidence from Dr. Omalu's research. If we pre-emptively ban headers in soccer, the U.S. market will take it that our sport has something to hide. The Football Industrial Complex will smear our sport with innuendo and lies and the larger public will buy it because they will react like a mob of adolescents beating up on the new kid. The Football Industrial Complex will then paint a halo around its head and pretend that it has been upfront about the dangers of its sport and working to improve safety when of course the exact opposite is true. On the other hand, if we have good evidence to back up Dr. Omalu's present speculation, we will look enlightened and rational. We will have a defense from the inevitable attacks from the Football Industrial Complex: soccer listened to scientific evidence and modernized while football ignored all evidence and continues to destroy its players. Intellectually, I agree with you that football is a dead man walking. The decline in youth participation rates and the stories of high schools needing to cancel football due to lack of interest certainly imply it. Further, the stories about certain Texas school districts requiring kids who want to play winter and spring sports to also play football in the fall says the Football Industrial Complex is scared. I'm not ready to believe it yet because of money and momentum, despite my personal wishes that you are correct. Most football fans who pay the bills at the NCAA and NFL levels don't know and don't care about the quality of play. You could have a weakened talent pool and those fans would still watch as long as there are players wearing jerseys of their favorite team bashing each others' heads. As long as that money is there, Big Football will do everything in its power to keep its place at the money trough. That includes bullying and demagoguing against up-and-coming sports with young pro leagues that are less than 20 years into a state of stability and growth.
Uuuuummm .... https://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/27/...-brain-trauma-disease-in-a-soccer-player.html http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/14/health/brain-damage-dementia-cte-soccer-football-study/index.html http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-37714830 https://www.wired.com/story/brain-trauma-scientists-turn-their-attention-to-soccer/ ^ what part of that/those is the FIC? Speaking from a Kinesiology degree, "proper technique" doesn't prevent the issue present with the head/ball striking each other and it's subsequent effects on the brain. In the easiest of ways of illustrating that, if "proper technique" was what mattered, we wouldn't see the prevalence of concussions RISE in American Football since the youth initiatives started years ago. We'd see an immediate and drastic downturn at the college and NFL level if it was merely "proper technique." It is there, it just doesn't exist in the numbers that it does for football because, erroneously (and just like with the LACK of brain injury understanding up until 25yrs ago), people (including medical professionals) thought soccer was "safe." Your whole "FIC" mantra is overblown. Yeah, of course the NFL is going to point to other sports ... but the studies and research that is shining the light on soccer aren't coming from the NFL or NFL led sources.
HailtotheKing- Do you think heading should be banned? When I first started this thread my take was ban it outside the 18. Then some other folks on the MB said ban it all. Which was surprising to me and frankly a nice feeling ensued. I would have suspected annoyance, digging in of heels and outright denials.... All- This is a message board who servers are housed in the US and is named "Big Soccer" meaning there are a lot of other Americans on this board. And then it's subdivided into the US section ......lol. My question is how are folks around the globe going to react to this (CTE in soccer, banning of heading). I'm thinking of the soccer hotbeds of Europe, and Brazil, Mexico and other areas of South & Central America. I have one friend who is from the UK and he is for it BUT did say: "Part of me would have to see the game changed, but this is very serious stuff. I say we need to make the change. And, yes, I'm sure it would go down very poorly with many people." Is the UK, Europe, the other America's where the digging in of heels, etc. will be? As Dr. Omalu says the game could become extinct if its not changed.
There are inherent dangers in ANY endeavor in life, period. I've seen all sorts of arguments on both sides and from all angles. Honestly, I'll protect my kids within what I consider "reason." I've also get certain rules and allowances in place depending on the sport/endeavor they choose. Yes, there are a SLEW of football players with issues, but how many tens of thousands or more don't? etc etc etc
To paraphrase what HailtotheKing said, the statistics between soccer and football are dramatically different. You have very large numbers of career football players who complain about mental problems in their 40's. There have been multiple high profile football players who have killed themselves and left their brains for science. There have been multiple football players who exhibited dramatic personality changes from a positive person to a moody, violent one. Where is the evidence for soccer? Where are the retired soccer players who have dementia at age 40? Where are the retired soccer players who shoot themselves in the chest to escape their terrible pain while also preserving their brain for science? Keep in mind that there are many, many more retired soccer players out there due it being a global sport. We need more than anecdotes about individual retired players getting dementia when they are senior citizens. We need hard data that shows that retired soccer players get dementia at younger ages and/or higher quantities than the general population. Right now, that evidence does not exist. Without hard evidence, it would be throwing out the baby with the bathwater to change the game. If Dr. Omalu shows hard evidence that soccer is dangerous like he did for football, I'll change my tune.
I'm not saying there is evidence of CTE in retired soccer players, but in the USA evidence would be harder to find. If both of these people committed suicide and were found to have CTE, which one would get more media in the USA reporting it? Player X spent five years in the NFL and was never a star Player Y was among the best 100 soccer players in the world while he played (not that there's a great way to measure that), but retired before there was much soccer from Europe on TV in the USA
You just made my point for me. With regards to the rest of your post, the oldest MLS alumni are in their mid 50's. There are NASL (the original one with Pele, not the zombie that exists now) alums who are in their 70's. Where are the stories of retired NASL or MLS players living lives of misery due to CTE like for football? The soccer-hating elements of the national sporting press like Tony Kornheiser or Jim Rome would be all over them if any existed. Until there is evidence otherwise, we should treat football as unique. It is the only sport that I know of where head to head collisions happen on every play and 300 pound men collide head-on at a top sprint. The worst effects are caused by the non-stop sub-concussive hits. The concussions in soccer tend to be hard concussions. Those are bad but they happen in every contact sport. However, players heal from a handful of strong concussions after retirement and live life with a good quality of life. Look at Taylor Twellman. He had to retire due to strong concussions. Since he knew he was hit and needed to retire, he has been able to live a quality life in retirement. Contrast that to Dan Marino who complains of memory loss and having problems walking in his late 40's.
@Cavan9 The study of this issue in soccer is literally less than 20 years old as the highest profile cases of direct links are from the late 90s early 2000s. You can't point to the lack of scientific output and cache of data and say "see, it's not there." Well no crap. The LARGEST sporting entity in the world has just been exposed and the entirety of CTE/head injury issues has only been a spotlight deal for a little over 5yrs now. OF COURSE everyone else is lagging behind on the issue ... and the studies reflect that. HOWEVER, yes study is being done and it IS being found in retired/deceased soccer players. Those links have been given to you. Currently the English FA and Player's Union are jointly researching. There are already studies showing that those that head the ball more frequently are more prone to concussion or concussion symptoms (and it is the concussion to CTE link that people are vilifying the NFL over). https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...n-changes-study-finds/?utm_term=.c8165746b524 ^ like that one for instance ... which shows that there is an immediately damaging effect of the "sub concussive" blows of heading the ball (and as a reminder it is the cumulative sub concussive blows that are the issue in football).