So, what gets looked at?

Discussion in 'World Cup 2010: Refereeing' started by Sport Billy, Jul 12, 2010.

  1. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    Obviously, the goalline technology drew the most attention, but what else gets looked at when FIFA reviews this World Cup?

    For me.

    1. Tactical Fouls: [no rule change needed]: FIFA needs to emphasize to the officials that tactical fouls occur on the entire pitch, not just in the defensive 3rd, and must be punished by a caution.

    2. Contact during the shot: [no rule change]: while I'm very much a proponent of "a foul at the center line is a foul in the box", I think more fouls need to be called in the box that wouldn't be called at the center line because of their impact. A slight nudge or tug that would be considered trifling at the center line can have a dramatic impact on a player who is in the process of shooting. In short, the little stuff in the box needs to be called more often.

    3. Offside: [no rule change]: fans/commentators/players/etc. need to focus on the purpose of the rule - to keep players from cherry picking. We need to encourage attacking soccer. I think the AR just needs to determine whether the players are relatively even. I understand that that is difficult to write into the rule, but very easy in implication. The freeze frame review of whether an attacker's kneecap is slightly ahead of a defender's toe is asinine IMHO (I admit I do it too). But, situations like this were not what the rule was intending to prevent and, in reality, the true determination is probably beyond human capabilities at real speed.

    4. Video Review: [Rule change]: I do not think video replay is needed or will even work. That being said, I think video review has a role in our game in two situations.
    A. Review of cautions: This World Cup brought to light that many players are given cautions when they were not deserved and even when no contact occurred. Cautions should be reviewed post match for a determination of whether they were warranted by the officiating team. They should be able to withdraw the caution. I know the player wrongly sent off would still be screwed, but when FIFA is going to stick to the asinine practice of "cumulative yellows", they are just too important not to be reviewed. Even for the player sent off, the subsequent suspension could be waived.

    B. Review of cheating: An player who obviously cheats by diving, intentional handball, etc but was not disciplined on field should be disciplined upon post game review.​

    5. Big Games: FIFA needs to accept that some games are bigger than others. If there is a way to improve the game at the World Cup, but that improvement cannot be implemented throughout the entire game down to U8, the improvement should be still be implemented for the World Cup, Confederation Championships, Champions League finals, etc. If MLB can realize the importance of the World Series and add additional umpires, we can do the same for our big games.

    6. Handball: [rule change needed]
    A. Clarification: re-write the rule to clarify the difference between "deliberate" and "intentional"
    B. Advantage: one of the first things everyone learns about soccer is that you cannot use your hands. Add language that if a player or team get an advantage by a handball whether that handball was deliberate or not, it is a foul.​

    7. Groping: [no rule change]:The constant grabbing, pulling, holding in the PA on every corner kick and dead ball must end. Sure, we may have games with 12 cautions and 4 PK's until players adjust, but they will adjust and they will adjust quickly.

    8. "Man Up" - it's time for FIFA to stop remaining silent and stop with the secret back room meetings. If FIFA or one of it's officials screws up, admit it and address it publicly. Anything short of that calls the integrity of the game into question.

    That's enough for now.
    Agree with me, rip me apart, or suggest your own.
     
  2. sm. town ref

    sm. town ref Member

    Aug 24, 2009
    Canada
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    I agree with most of what you have posted, except this:

    B. Advantage: one of the first things everyone learns about soccer is that you cannot use your hands. Add language that if a player or team get an advantage by a handball whether that handball was deliberate or not, it is a foul.


    You would be calling "handball" on about 50% of anything that strikes a hand/arm.
    Think of a defender standing less than 5 yards from an attempted cross, in the box.... it now becomes a penalty kick. That is just one example.
     
  3. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    Thought-provoking list ... realistically, the only way this point ever gets cleaned up is by limiting the number of players on each team who are allowed to be in the box on these plays. (You'd need a special provision for a wall, of course.)

    Well put. Silence doesn't benefit FIFA at all, but if they communicate and use technology effectively, they can stand behind referees when they're correct and help clarify some situations when they're incorrect.
     
  4. Iforgotwhat8wasfor

    Jun 28, 2007
    1. Tactical Fouls: [no rule change needed]:
    You aren't going to accomplish anything with emphasis. What people want is an effective "fouling out" rule like basketball. You are putting an enormous burden on referees to not only recognize fouls, but to decide if they are tactical and if they excede some theoretical quota. It is very hard to send someone off for a ticky tack foul and to keep a consistent line from game to game, ref to ref. The whole thing needs to be rethought.
    2. Contact during the shot: [no rule change]:
    "The Chichester Puddleguppies hearts were broken today by a 4-3 beat down from Colgate Palmolive. The Puddleguppies failed to convert 2 of the 10 PK's ordered by the referee..." I'm a big believer in "a challenge that infuriates at the center line might not raise an eyebrow in the box". I don't see this as big problem, and I think the PK/no PK calls are generally understood and accepted. Don't try to fix what is easily made a lot worse.
    3. Offside: [no rule change]:
    I don't think fans and announcers have problems with even/ahead decisions. Rather it's blown calls and the human synchronization delay. You might be able to limit the former with more observers, but replay is really the only complete solution.
    4. Video Review: [Rule change]:
    These aren't rules changes, they are administrative processes, and high time for them.
    5. Big Games:
    Agree. It's unavoidable if you are going to do anything. How many games have 4th officials? (or even ARs?)
    6. Handball: [rule change needed]
    I think deliberate is a rare example of very good LOTG writing. An arm contact the player could think about (deliberate upon).
    If you penalize any handling in the box, you get players aiming at opponent's arms. What I would suggest instead:
    Any handling that prevents a goal or opportunity for a goal results in an awarded goal.
    Any intentional handling (i.e. reaching out and swatting, or trying to hide it) is misconduct.
    7. Groping: [no rule change]:
    I think the root of the problem is that much of the time it is better for the attacker to fight through a grab than to stop the attack for a free kick. Thus defenders can make a little grab that becomes trifling simply because it's advantageous to let it go. Now it happens everytime and drawing a consistent, clear line becomes difficult. Maybe every shirt grab should become a mandatory YC...
    8. "Man Up"
    FIFA treats its refs pretty shabbily already. Nothing is gained by making them defend individual decisions.
     
  5. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    I'm not trying to be a smart ass, but how would this work? I know people have suggested it, but I really don't understand it's application.

    The Tevez, goal scored, clearly offside, replay show offside, no goal, free kick for the offside going out. --- this I understand.

    However,

    Slicing pass results in breakaway, flag goes up, play whistled dead, everyone stops, replay shows onside - how do you then fix this missed call?

    I don't understand how to fix the blown off when really on by replay.
     
  6. Iforgotwhat8wasfor

    Jun 28, 2007
    You would have to have the flag in the "hands" of the replay official, I guess. Yeah, it's pretty drastic.

    I think spectators could understand the synchronization delay like "the umpire's strike zone" with a little more education and exhortion...
     
  7. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    Ulimate fairness? probably none. the play was ruined by the bad referee decision.

    There will be a restart, just as there is now. At least award the restart the right way. don't let the opponent benefit from a bad call.
     
  8. LiquidYogi

    LiquidYogi Member

    Sep 3, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Tevez play was a fluke. It is not the norm, we didn't have tons of offside decisions that were way off. We had a few that were extremely close and far more that were great calls.

    We don't need instant replay to determine offside. We need AARs to take some of the burden of fouls and goal line plays off of the ARs so that they can focus on offside more. It's a pretty simple concept, if you add people you delegate responsibilities and define referees jobs more clearly, leading to better more focussed referees and more correct calls.
     
  9. BMF

    BMF Member

    Mar 4, 2000
    San Jose, Costa Rica
    I think this is very well said. To me, the solution is simple: instruct the refs to call offside only when they can see space between the attacking player and 2nd-to-last defender. Yes, this will allow some plays to proceed that are indeed offside--though, as stated above, these situations really aren't what the rule was designed to prevent. What will happen, hopefully, is that we will never see a precious goal-scoring opportunity negated due to a false offside flag. Given how few of these often occur in games, and the general low rate of scoring, it's seems just criminal to squash one or two a game due to an over-zealous assistant's flag.
     
  10. blueboy

    blueboy Member

    Oct 26, 2000
    First of all, there is no such thing as a "hand ball" in soccer.

    The penal foul is "deliberate handling of the ball"

    If it "ain't" deliberate, it "ain't" a foul, even if the ball goes into the net and a goal is scored.
     
  11. LiquidYogi

    LiquidYogi Member

    Sep 3, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Referees just a small note. If you see the ball bounce off a players hand and into the net...do NOT let it count. NEVER let that count.
     
  12. blueboy

    blueboy Member

    Oct 26, 2000
    And your reasoning for not letting it count is what????????????

    How would you sell your call to an assessor who is assessing you?

    He would tell you that you are not following the laws of the game, you are influencing the outcome of the game, and are making up your own "rooles" as you go along.
     
  13. DudsBro

    DudsBro Member

    Jan 12, 2010
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    If is player has his back turned, with his hands in the natural position by his side and the ball bounces off his hand/arm from a shot that he could not see or react to and goes in the net. Goal?
     
  14. LiquidYogi

    LiquidYogi Member

    Sep 3, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    And he'd be wrong...you cannot score a goal with your hands. Call a handling foul, do not let that goal count if you do your game is over and you will not make it out of there alive.
     
  15. blueboy

    blueboy Member

    Oct 26, 2000
    So, LiquidYogi, you're saying you know more than FIFA assessors?

    Torsten Frings in 2006 World Cup, USA vs Germany - ball hits his hand that is hanging at his side as he is guarding goal post - ball does NOT go in - did referee call DELIBERATE HANDLING?

    NO!!!!

    Did FIFA admonish referee or send him home - NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Anything that is not deliberate is not deliberate handling.

    Are you really a referee?????
     
  16. LiquidYogi

    LiquidYogi Member

    Sep 3, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    You wonder why we're not allowed to play the ball with our hands? I do, that's why I'm saying what I'm saying. It's a spirit of the law that matters most, something the referees need to concern themselves with.

    This law was created so we cannot use our hands, scoring a goal by having a ball bounce off our hand and into the net seems completely counter to that. If a players hand or arm was literally flat against their body and the ball hits it an goes in...I can see that not being against the spirit. However even if the arm is in an natural position and the ball hits it and goes in, call it.

    If you don't want to listen to me don't...if you ref games where I ref though and you don't call it you're screwed.
     
  17. RobtheRef

    RobtheRef New Member

    Apr 30, 2010
    Georgia
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's not refereeing, that's just placating the masses. You're quoting the fact that a ball hitting the hand and going into the net is against the spirit of the law, but I would counter to you that it's against the spirit of the law to cheat a team out of a legitimate goal because you're afraid of what the reaction from the opposing team will be.

    This would be something we'd label as a 'game critical decision', and if you don't have the stones to make the right call, you don't deserve to be on the field. Disallowing the goal because 'it hit his hand' is the easy way out, and simply goes to re-enforce the problem youth games are filled with now of people screaming "HANDBALL REF!!! IT TOUCHED HIS ELBOW!! HANDBALLLL!!!!"

    Ultimately it's a judgement call, and I can't tell you any more than you can tell me what is or is not 'deliberate'. I agree that sometimes referees get too caught up with the wording of the law and less with the spirit in which it was intended, but this is just downright foolish.
     
  18. LiquidYogi

    LiquidYogi Member

    Sep 3, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    I'll remember that the next time I get a gun pulled on me (has happened to me)...or a knife pulled on me (has happened to me)...or get beaten brutally for my decision. The truth is all refereeing is placating to the masses...because the masses are stronger than the individual, they hold your life in their hands.

    I agree it's the wrong decision according to the Laws of the Game and all Logic and Reason. I'm just trying to protect myself and other referees from needless violence.
     
  19. PVancouver

    PVancouver Member

    Apr 1, 1999
    You have my interest. Can you give us a generic description about where you referee, at least?
     
  20. jayhonk

    jayhonk Member+

    Oct 9, 2007
    This issue came up in the Ref section a couple of months ago and the opinion was somewhat divided. I strongly argued LiquidYogi's position. But not from self-defense rationale. In my opinion, None of the players, none of the coaches and none of the fans think that players can legally score goals legally with their hands. None. Hence, referees should not either.

    IMO, If you read the Laws and come to the part that talks about deliberate handling and decide what you are deciding, then you have missed the unwritten Preamble to the Laws, the first sentence of which goes something like:
    Football is a game in which a round ball is played with all parts of the body, excepting the arms and hands.
     
  21. summers

    summers Member

    Jul 14, 2007
    If a player is ready to strike a hard shot from the top of the box, and you run at him with your arms spread wide like a scarecrow, you are usually going to get called for a hand ball - because you are putting your arms in a position where they can block a ball that would not otherwise hit you. It might not be deliberate since the ball is well struck and there's no time to react when you throw your body in front of it, but that call almost always gets made. And rightfully so.

    I thought the Frings play should have been a PK (although that was closer than the scenario I described above). He was standing on the goal line with his arms spread out wider than his frame (not as bad as a scarecrow, but they were certainly away from his side). That allowed him to block a ball that would have gone in if his arms were at a natural position. I don't know how I feel about a red card there, though - that to me could fall into grey area where it was enough of a violation to give the PK, but not enough to give a card. I could see that decision causing major arguments from both sides.

    Here's a scenario where I could see a ball going in off a hand legitimately counting: scramble in front of the net, and a defender clears the ball off the line. Striker jumps in front with his arms crossed. Ball strikes him in the hand and goes in - although it would have hit him in the chest if his arms weren't crossed. Should count - since the ball wasn't handled.
     
  22. LiquidYogi

    LiquidYogi Member

    Sep 3, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    SoCal mens leagues, Compton is where the gun incident happened (yeah I know how that sounds...seriously Compton). Funnily I was reffing at a Prison for the last 5 years...not once did I ever feel threatened or in any danger...except from the guards.
     

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