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Discussion in 'Germany: National Teams' started by .Azulgrana., May 2, 2013.
Why Sven Bender over Lars Bender as the primary Khedira alternative, just out of curiosity?
Because Lars Bender hasn't been part of a team that has eliminated Real Madrid in a semi final of the Champions League and going to the final. Lars was part of the team that lost 7-1 at Camp Nou last year. Lars is better offensively no doubt but defensively Sven is better. Sven has better positioning and reading of the game defensively. As I said before, let Schweinsteiger go forward and Sven do the dirty work. Lars could play as a right back though.
Okay. I disagree with your assessment of Khedira, but I don't feel like going into an argument about it. So I bid you good day, or good night, for now.
I'd like to see Löw experiment with a three-man midfield in a 4-3-3. I feel it could give more stability to the defence and also allow for optimization of the attack.
Defensive (we're holding a lead):
Sven Bender------------Sami Khedira
Offensive (we're chasing the match):
Normal (what I'd like to see):
No, no, no. In no way is any of this close to the truth. I don't know from where you get the idea that Sven is defensively better. Lars is overall just as good defensively while offering more going forward and arguming with the team success is stupid.
It is that kind of reasoning why Reus had to sit on the bench at the EC while we had Podolski starting.
Lars Bender is the closest thing to a german version of Martinez we have.
Did Kießling lose his citizenship? If not he is a superior version to Mandzukic. He works even harder (wins more duels on the ground and in the air, statisticaly he is the best striker in Europa in that area) and has also a better output (goals, assists), even his dribbling and technical skills are better in my eyes.
So if Löw wanted a striker like this he does have one readily available.
All true, but Löw does not rate Kießling highly due to his lack of international experience and as much as I tend to criticize Löw for some of his decisions, I believe this one is justified. From what I have read Kießling failed again to impress in the EL, maybe he can do better next year when Leverkusen plays CL but so far he has no place in the NT. Remember we want a team cappable of winning the WC and if Dortmund can repeat a similar run in the CL next year (perhaps not until the Final, but mayber QF) it'll be very difficult for players outside of Bayern and Dortmund to get a place in the Starting XI.
Keep in mind that Löw emphasized how much he values international experience last year when asked why he did not include more Dortmund players (something like: "We want to beat Spain and this, with due respect, more difficult than beating Hoffenheim").
Many of you have sounding points with failures done in the past by Löw. But some comparings are a bit unfair. This year's Bayern and Dortmund players are way more mature than past year's. Also you shouldn't do the mistake to free the players from their own accountability. Kids like Kroos, Özil, Hummels and even men like Gomez and Klose had a ********in bad performance showing in the semi final against Italy. It's definitely not all Löw's mistake. Add to this discussions like the Kießling talk. Personally I don't want to see this Kießling kid anywhere near the National Team.. this case is at least controversial so it's hard to speak of a failure of Löw. If he has one thing done fairly well then it's to develop the team, integrating most of the young guns without giving them a green card. For some it may not be fast enough from a fan's perspective but this is more true to every other coach/team.
Last but not least Germany isn't just a composition of the best of Bayern and Dortmund. Both teams rely heavily on foreign players like Ribery, Dante, Lewandowski, Piszek or Martinez and it's just too easy to replace these players 1:1 with German talent.
So in my opinion Löw is a fairly good coach for the NT over the past years. It's hard to judge what's the reason to not win a major competition in that time (what has Heynckes done the last two years and nobody would call him anything other than a great coach despite having way less alterations and way more time/matches to solve them). Hell Bayern is called the best team in Europe participating 3 times in 4 years in the final and haven't won shit until now.. so what does that tell you? You need to be patient to a certain extent.
Löw should finish after 2014 though because you just need some fresh ideas some changes (and that's true for every team after some years) but I feel it's not very accurate to point him out as the main problem/reason why we haven't won a cup since 2008. It's more the easiest answer and therefor often inaccurate.
@ Dage: You do have a point there. I don't blame Löw for losing against Spain in 2008. Spain had the better players, no doubt about it. Back in 2010 well, we lacked experience but I think he played to defensive agains Spain but it was not too bad. But he did make several mistakes in 2012. I am willing to wait until 2014 and I would not necessarily sack him we fail to win a trophy again. You can have the best players and still lose the final because the opposing team has the game of their life e.g. Hungary vs. Germany 1954). But if he get his tactics wrong again, then he will have to go.
Wait wait ... Playing with a number nine means against the trend?
U realize Real Madrid, Chelsea, Man City, Manchester United, Liverppol or even Bayern Munich, Dortmund, Leverkusen all play with a striker in their starting lineup right? That's the trend
U don't need a striker calls Lewandowski or Manduzkic
Klose is pretty amazing when he isn't injured, bare in mind and he's at least the same level and has more intangibles than Mandukic. Klose offers experience, aerial ability, passing n clinical finishing(Goetze, Oezil n co. Are woeful finishers and have no inside-the-box game)
Kiessling is another player who is mobile and has Mandzukic's game. 2nd Leading scorer in BL as well, very good in form
So in the short term, u can't overlook all our strikers
Looks like Ginczek, Volland, Mlapa, Shawn Parker, Fullkrug, Yesil, Ducksch will have plenty of opportunities next season as well. I think Fullkrug, Yesil, Ducksch are top prospects and their style fit the NT very well. Not sure if Shawn Parker is clinical enough
Pep Guardiola said he knew the weakenesses false 9 would be exposed two years ago. He knew the system have major flaws and good coaches will punish this system one day. He said it in an interview.
I would think that the 2008 team had way more expirience than the 2012 team. It's not that the National Team is more or less the same since 2007, the progress of the team is rather fast with only a little crop of core players playing most of the tournaments and even them on different positions. That's the bad side of the ongoing progression, it was more or less every tournament a new team and thankfully so. But the great times of that team still lay in the future.
Kießling is hardly a kid, though. He's 29 years old. For the most part I agree with everything else.
I think he's not talking of the false 9 when he speaks of Löw's tactical ineptness. If that was the only thing Löw misjudged, I think I would be more accommodating of him. But if you look at the actual post, nowhere in it does SirManchester mention the false 9, it is focused on other tactical issues with this squad. I suggest you address those rather than pick another fight.
I didn't mentioned the false 9 either, did I? My point was the correlation between the tactical mistake (can only remember one real mistake, the semi final 2012) and the outcome of the NT together with the responsibility of either of the participating players who now one year older are mostly in (another) CL final.
All these discussions about mental weakness of this generation or the non existent leader of the team, flat hierachies etc. look pretty dumb now after this CL season if you ask me. They were comparable inadequate as the "Löw is a bad manager" talks.
I didn't ever say you did, I was quoting Kirsten19's post, which was taking SirManchester's original post, which never even mentioned the false 9, and turning it into a tool with which to pick a fight about the false 9.
I can't see Kirsten's postings so for me it looked like a direct reply to my post, so my fault.
I am talking about his interpretation of tactics including use of striker, defense, lack of retention, lack of pressing, flexibility, personnel interpretation, and so on.
Why are you naive? Kiessling will not get his chance, despite deserving a call up. And he isn't a better version than Mandzukic. I don't think either is superior but you are extremely unfair to the latter, especially when you talk about defensive workrate.
Anyway, Kiessling is pretty much dead in Löw's eyes. Not sure how many times we have to talk about this.
Löw can not ignore the developement the two main source teams of the Mannschaft did undergo. He has the choice to proceed his own 4-2-3-1 or take over the Bavarian 4-4-1-1 but he lacks the wingers he needs to do so. Dortmund often plays with a flat 4-5-1 that would suit the Mannschaft better in my opinion.
I am most concerned about the offensive strength the german NT got. I dont care about a false 9 and if Löw isnt completly ignorant to recent tactics and i think he isnt, he drops this idea as well. Mandzukic and Lewandowski are the best examples of a strong 9. But i dont see a german striker right now able to perform similarily to those two world class strikers. Kiessling? Inconsistent. Klose is aging allthough he might still have the physical presence and the right positioning for a holding 9. Mario Gomez wont change his style ever. To easy to shut down as he isnt moving much. Who else is there?
I for one don't mean to sound too hard on Loew....For the most part I think he has done a great job. MANY other fans of NTs with as much/more talent would be jealous of the coaching and organization of the DFB. Euro 2012 though....I feel like a pattern started to emerge that his decision making was too reactive (and maybe even a little irrational). Talking about him being replaced before 2014 though IMO is unrealistic - that is a move I don't think the DFB would make.
Tactics in the Italy game aside, after the Euro 12 performance as a whole (and since for that matter), I was perplexed as to why the defensive game of the team was not good at all and seemed to get worse each game. Was it Loew's tactics, what he was telling the players, their form, confidence, ability, club training?
Maybe a little of everything, but looking ahead, it should be pretty clear now that he can get a better over-all defensive performance from the players - both Dortmund and Bayern players have worked very hard defending as a team in the CL and it has had a large part in their success. I hope Loew has noted that and will be able to pull it together moving forward.
What do I care? You said we don't have a striker like Mandzukic and I pointed out that we have. And yes imo Kießling is a better version than Mandzukic. Let's not forget that Mandzukic wasn't more than an average BL striker in his time at Wolfsburg. Kießling is for sure also not my wish as starter for the german NT but if Mandzukic can do the job at Bayern then the same would be possible for Kießling in the NT, that's all I'm saying.
I'm simply not intersted in giving Löw stupid excuses like a lack of strikers if the likes of Mandzukic can perform well enough for Bayern.
Can we please stop repeating this nonsense. It's statistically proven that Gomez moves actually more, he is just less on the ball. Not to mention that Bayern won WITH Gomez agaisnt Barca 4:0.
That's the thing... a well working team/system will work with any good striker. Something I have always been saying and why I don't care about all this "false 9" talk.[/quote]
Really? I obviously said we don't have one who can realistically be called up... That was also discussed to death here.
Totally disagree with your assertion of Mandzukic at Wolfsburg. He was fantastic for them and totally overachieved with the dross around him. He carried them for the large spell he was there but I don't care for a further discussion on Mandzukic and part of me thinks we wouldn't even be having this discussion if he wasn't in direct competition with Gomez at Bayern because you are clearly not being objective about him here.
Oh Dear..if you are going to ignore the part that spoke in detail about his use against Barcelona, there's no need to have this conversation. If your ultimate point is that we don't have to deviate from a striker-centric formation because Gomez offers everything a Mandzukic/Kiessling/Lewandowski does, then you're wrong.
You're right about the last part though and that's where you need to be objective with Gomez. He works if the system works for him. Gomez's strengths come from direct wide play where he occupies the box. The more this is the better he is. Making changes to adhere to that eliminates the strengths of the players around him, not to the point where they aren't effective but you would be holding back their full potential. That's something that has been more than evident so far.
Germany also aren't Bayern because they have players from Dortmund so we can't just adapt Bayern's direct and "flexible" approach. We must also incorporate the high pressing/total football-esque tactics from Dortmund. In this hybrid system it's difficult to imagine creating a balance in which Gomez can succeed in large spells or as part of the starting formation.
That's Löw's dilemma here. He has Bayern's very physical/direct 4-2-3-1 shape that varies in execution between sometimes countering wide and holding centrally, and Dortmund's high pressing Dutch-esque use of space. Two distinct but now successful approaches. How does he combine these two?
That's why the false nine formation is naturally emerging as the best choice. It doesn't cut out the width a Bayern approach can bring and it doesn't limit our use of space and allows players upfront to interchange. It allows us to play with a retainer and a transitional midfielder and more importantly we don't really lose the synergy that can come from a group of special players.
This is why the adoption of this system isn't about following a trend or copying someone else. It's the solution that makes the most sense in order to strike a balance with the options and players that we have at the moment. If anything this has the potential to become an even better version of what the Spanish have created just as Bayern and Dortmund followed and picked what Barcelona did, added to it and improved it.
I wanted to see if you are right and you are. Just for anyone who cares. I got the figures from UEFA.com
CL tournament phase:
Minutes played: 202
Distance in meters covered: 25945
128m per minute
Minutes played: 630
Distance in meters covered: 76541
121m per minute
Minutes played: 1000
Distance in meters covered: 123097
123m per minute
So its not in the running distance then. But there is a reason Heynckes chose the croat over Gomez. And i think it has to do with the fact Gomez is less of give-and-go player and considerably worser in one on one situations imho.
Also with the space he does cover, which is mainly centrally and although he does cover distance it's not spread throughout the match as with Mandzukic or Lewandowski.
Pep Guardiola said false 9 has serious flaws and he knew it would fail one day 2 years ago.
SirManchester is trying to play tricks here, Dortmund n Bayern have never played strikerless unless they wanna play a defensive approach in the last 10min or so.
I m looking at Barcelona's roster, and even Spain's U19/U20/U21, many players of the same type, many skillful AMs, but is it good to play them all together?? Still, I think u need different component to make a champion team. Not only skillful midfielders, fluidity and creativity, u need physical presence, aerial ability, toughness, execution up top. (Goetze/Oezil are woeful finishers btw).
Pep also stated False 9 should've been read n analyzed already. The flaws are obvious. Looks like Bayern/Jupp have dealt with that perfectly
Next season will be crucial tho, Ginczek/Yesil/Ducksch/Fullkrug/Shawn Parker/Volland/Mlapa are the modern strikers we want and will have plenty of chances next season.
When we have a successor of Klose (who's still pretty good), I think we are complete as a team