I just read the story on MSNBC of the White House explaining GWB's service during Viet Nam. Maybe he wasn't technically AWOL, I don't know, but it doesn't sound good. During the war and after college (student deferment) he joined the National Gaurd (pretty obvious war dodge, but who could blame him) then asks for a transfer to Alabama where he goes to work on the senate campaign of a friend of his father's. He is working on the campaign, not as a National Gaurdsman, but just because he is interested in the idea. During this time he gets paid for 9 days of Gaurd service between May '72 and May '73. Nobody says he was there 9 days, just that pay records indicate he got paid for 9 days. He then bags an early out to go to Harvard biz school ( he says not through the influence of his father) and an honorable discharge. This is not exactly being in a bunker for the Tet Offensive if ya know what I mean. This is the story HIS side is putting out! This is the "War" president. The guy in the flight suit. People with the ability or connections to avoid Viet Nam mostly did, and we mostly don't blame them. It was a crazy time. But I think for GWB it will be more problematic. His assertion of "fulfilling his duty" sounds like some shady character saying "I was never found guilty of a crime." I think this will be a campaign issue.
The world could really turn weird over the next half year. Let's hope not, and this AWOL thing is an issue. Otherwise the real issues are - Bush doctrine results in nuclear proliferation - Iraq war was based on lies - deficits do matter - employment rates do matter - things could turn ugly in Pakistan and we have no policy to manage our interests there Needless to say, the first campaign issue should be W's lack of competence at the job. The fact that he gives the impression of being a lying dolt, whether it is about the economy or AWOLness, is just frosting on the cake.
How can this be a campaign issue? Clinton ran to London and Gore took pictures. Wow,they were regular Eisenhower's weren't they?
Speaking as someone who knows what he talking about...Bush was not AWOL, and the record clearly show that he completed the required service, having received "good" years for the years in question. May 72-April 73, he has 56 service points. You get 15 points for being in the military, plus 2 points for each day served, or 20 and 1/2 days. That is a good year, plain and simple.... This AWOL thing is simply stupid....
Re: Re: So was he AWOL ? But they're not running this year, now are they? Once again, the utterly dishonest mannyfreshstunna tries to change the debate away from Bush to Clinton because it's his only hope of not getting his balls hammered. Stick to the topic, little boy. Your debating "tactics" might impress your frat brothers after they've wrapped themselves around the better part of a keg. We're considerably smarter than that.
Re: Re: So was he AWOL ? All Bush has to do to kill the speculation is to release his service records. That's all. A bunch of pay stubs won't cut it.
The AWOL only matters if it is part of a larger pattern reflecting a lifetime habit of deception and dishonesty. If you factor in the DWI, shady investors in Arbusto, municipal welfare to support his Texas Rangers deal, cocaine use, mis-information about WMD and al Qaeda, claiming to work with UN regarding diplomatic processes with Iraq, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah, .... You start to see his true character. He is essentially dishonest, with no respect for the truth. When he speaks, he barely seems to have a handle on what he is trying to say. The sad thing is, this isn't even the biggest hammer Kerry can hit him with. Bush's lack of competence in the job is much more important.
Re: Re: Re: So was he AWOL ? I'm feeling better and better about Kerry. He (obviously) makes this AWOL story significant and more generally changes the entire patriotism dynamic. And, despite what Obie is saying, we can all agree that he's dominated the primaries in a remarkable fashion. This is going to be one hell of a fight.
My dad had many classes with Archie Griffen, the only 2-time Heismen award winner. He has told me that Archie never went to class, never took a test and you can guess the rest. All that education Archie got landed him the 2nd spot in the athletic department and now the top position at the Alumni association. Some people just coast through life. In related news, not one person has come forward saying they remembered seeing/serving with Bush in Alabama.
Well, in fairness, you can't really blame Ole Five-to-Four for that. When it comes to building sports venues with tax dollars, the City of Arlington is very accomodating to team owners. Had the voters of Dallas not approved the funding for the American Airlines Center, Arlington would've almost certainly built them a new arena.
Here's a Yahoo article on the situation. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm..._pr_wh/bush_military_records&cid=544&ncid=716 It states that Bush joined the Air National Guard in 1968. He had some time in service well before this "issue" even came up.
One of the questions still out there is that the records the Bushies provided have him on duty the weekend before the last weekend of the campaign. That doesn't seem very likely to me. Given all of the circumstances, that's a serious red flag. No way, in a normal situation, does that happen; he'd just wait two weeks until the campaign is over.
Re: Re: Re: Re: So was he AWOL ? If you really believe that this is the proper response, then please run against Clinton and Gore this fall. How do they show that? They show he got paid, which as this WaPo columnist who was there points out, does not correspond to service. In fact, he got paid for one of the weeks he was assigned to the Alabama Nat'l Guard, October 29th 1972, when there was no training scheduled in Alabama. Let me reiterate what I said in the other thread -- Kerry's best showing to date is, I believe, 52% in North Dakota. He has the lead and by historical precedent should win the nomination. But Clark's dropout today is going to help Edwards a lot more than Kerry, and Clark + Edwards beat Kerry in Tennessee last night. It's not over. It won't be over until Super Tuesday at the latest.
Just FYI, the Wall Street Journal (aka the Conservative Paper Of Record) has zero coverage of this today, which may be a signal of what's to come: just declare it a non-issue and ignore it. I wouldn't be surprised if the only people who try to keep this alive are bloggers, who were successful before in taking Lott down.
Re: Re: So was he AWOL ? because he's sending troops to fight and die in the desert. and becuase Kerry is a decorated veteran who served in the war while bush was eating gumbo. it's as important as any other issue of character.
Don't you love it when people's past conduct catch up to them? AWOL? Maybe. The only thing this proves is that Bush can't recollect, clearly, a very significat part of his life. Thirty years is a long time, but I bet you my father can tell you who he served with and where while in the Army during Nam. The fact that NO ONE has stepped forward to say they served with him during that one year period is the MOST compelling part of this scenario. Speaking from experience; pay stubs don't mean sh!t and neither does an honerable discharge. Neither one has any bearing on Bush's whereabouts during that stretch of time.
Exactly. I mean, if it was me, I can see my fellow weekend warriors having forgotten after 30 years. But I turned out to be President of the United States, I'm pretty sure a couple would remember me all of a sudden. Where are these guys for Bush?
Except here we're talking about a relatively small number of days in Alabama. I doubt Bush did anything wrong here, but this is the guy who has tried to portray himself as a fighter pilot, will be running against a Vietnam war hero, and has sent 500 troops to their death in an arguably frivilous war. So it's definitely an issue.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: So was he AWOL ? Barring some spectacular revelation or a plane crash, it's over. There have been several legitimate, credible candidates and Kerry has utterly destroyed them. You're actually making something about Clark + Edwards COMBINED receiving more votes in a Southern state? Yeah, just maybe Edwards can win a couple more states, but so what? You're getting into 1 in a 1000 territory here.
Re: Re: So was he AWOL ? At least we know where they were. Bush won't even tell us where he was when he was supposed to serving his country, even in a capacity as unliklely to see combat as Gore's. Of course, given his drinking, snorting and who knows what all else during those years, he may be telling us the truth when he says he doesn't know.
Wait, John Kerry served in Vietnam? Really? Certainly, if he served in Vietnam he would have mentioned it or something, right? Another Bush AWOL thread.....wow. With absolutely no new information in it. Fascinating. Is this what Kerry meant when he said we should put Vietnam behind us in, um, 1992?
I personally can't wait for the nation to mature to a stage where "what did you do in Vietnam" is a trivial issue in a political campaign. At least sometime in the future the age range of candidates will settle the issue once and for all. Of course by then we'll be at "in 2003, where you fighting Al-Queda in Iraq or protesting that Bush is making **** up about WMDs" level of moronicy.
Him going to Alabama to serve in the guard while supporting a campaign is a significant transition event in his life. He, along with others, should remember something significant about his service there, unless, of course, he was coked out of his mind. The sad truth is, this will only matter to the swing voters like myself. Everyone else in entrenched and will not be swayed in any way; even if photos of thier candidate with his dick stuck in a mule surface. Hey Bomb, I wonder why there is no new info. Maybe because the Whitehouse desperately wants this to go away.
Wake, are you saying: - The Dems are "not" scoring points with this issue (significant or not) - Even if they are scoring political points with it, they should stop anyway because...what, it's "lame"?...because they're stealing Reep tactics? I understand you'd like it to go away, but please don't act like, if the situation was reversed, you'd be saying the same thing.
I really don't know. I imagine they are, because they keep bringing it up, and far be it from any politician to bring it up without polling numbers showing that he should be bringing it up. How about your fellow Red Sox fan John Kerry saying we needed to stop using Vietnam to divide the country back in 1992? I suppose things are a little different when he get's to play the soldier. Ah, the two wrongs make it right defense? Yes, it's morning in America. You know me so well. But...but...but...Clinton was a draft-dodger. He hated America and pissed on the the flag. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, I feel so much better.