Generally, in agreement, but beyond the correction on League's Cup, isn't Pierre just coming back from the afore mentioned hamstring plague? Two solid academy players in the first 18 isn't horrible, but of course Davis has emerged at the same position in which Pierre showed promise. One position with a starter and depth from the Academy is less than ideal. Seriously, what's the deal with Volodor? Why is he in the doghouse? Does anyone here think PV will move on from Roger and Zusi in the offseason? They have options, right? He's still playing Roger way too often, for too many minutes. Is this PV still dealing with the pain of being jettisoned when he felt he had more to give as a player? I don't remember that being the case, but there is something going on there. On Pulido: once he's in the DP category, I'm not sure it matters what he's paid, at least as fans. If he's healthy he seems motivated. He is a hell of a player. I'd rather make a move for Grezmann at that kind of money, but that's probably half what he'd require. On that, our DPs are Pulido, Thommy and Kinda. According to the MLSPA 2023 numbers, Pulido makes $2.2m, and will rise to a reported $4m plus. Kinda makes $918,000, Thommy makes $1.67m.
My grandma was a marriage counselor and she used to say that a relationship could still be saved if both parties still has some kind of strong emotion toward the other. If they still loved each other well that was easier. If they said they hated each other well that still meant there was some strong emotion there to work with and likely still some love deep down somewhere. It was when one or both partners felt indifferent towards the other then it was time to move on because there was no love left. I'm rapidly moving toward indifference. Its been two years that I've been on the big change must happen/PV out train and ownership has done nothing as the team has done nothing. I'm nearly to the point where I'm just a neutral MLS fan.
Damn....I got so apathetic I started making things up? Good catch and thanks for the correction. Chalk it up to old age. Pierre - His stats this season....1 game/ 5 minutes. Two academy players would be nice, but I am not ready to add him to the list of Academy successes. Davis looks OK. He might develop into a good MLS starter but he is not a player you are going to resell for value. When I watch most other clubs, they have 3 or 4 young players that look good. Volodor - all of the U22 signings for that matter, seem forgotten. I know one is very unhappy with the current situation and wants out. They have become very expensive backups ($300 to $600K players) that rarely play and contribute little. And now to the most salient of topics. The coach. The really bad MLS teams have all moved on from their coach.The best analogs in the group are Bradley and Savarese. Bradley had total control in Toronto, like Peter does here. TFC acknowledge that fixing a failing organization run by one man requires removing that one man. Gio. This is the best analog. Gio built his rosters like Peter. Old guys that give you the best chance to win today over young guys that are good today, and might get better over time. The only difference is geographic preference. Gio got his players from S. America. Peter likes his old guys to come from Europe. Besides that, they both suck at developing young talent and are/were both in charge of terrible academies. Neither had huge superstars but did have some good to great players to build a roster around. Both maintained success for a few seasons, then saw their success decline as their roster of veteran players got old and broken. Gio got his club to MLS Cup in 2018 (when he tactically outsmarted Peter) and in 2021. They didn't make the playoffs in 2022 and are as bad as SKC in 2023. SKC and Portland are equally terrible these past 2 seasons. Portland has experienced much more success recently than SKC. One club wants to win and cut the chord. The other club gave Peter a 5 year extension to make sure he has a comfortable retirement. I can't come up with a better reason for apathy than that.
Technically Portland did the same thing SKC did, but not as long and cut the cord quickly (which we've all realized KC won't do). https://www.timbers.com/news/timber...i-savarese-to-a-multi-year-contract-extension
As a fan since Arrowhead, I generally echo the sentiment conveyed in this thread. However, as a Dad, I cannot ignore the successes SKC has made this year. My kids are early elementary and both play. They hate missing a home game. They love a number of the players on the team and ask me fairly nuanced roster and formation questions. SKC has not had good results on the field this year, and my family knows it. But through it all, I credit the club, namely the players, for continuing to reach out to audiences and provide access for those that are willing to engage. Autographs, a training session, field level stuff, etc. So ya, I'd agree this isnt the club we necessarily want right now. And I see the apathy too. But its the club we have. And I cannot ignore the generational leap (in my household at least) the club has made in 2023.
An acquaintance came over the other day, incredibly excited about the new season beginning. He's from Frankfurt and a lifelong Eintract fan, He started asking questions about how being a fan works in the US, with the league being so new. In his view, he's always been an Eintract fan and always will be. Now, they've been kind of good the last couple years, but he brought a banner for me that lists all of their trophies. It's a tiny banner. They last won the 1st Bundesliga in 1959, runnersup in 1932. Going 20 years between trophies of any kind is not unusual. He just likes the club because it's his club, was his club as a kid, and will be until he dies. Eintract, founded in 1889, has marginally more trophies than SKC, founded in 1996, I'm not happy with the trend, but I won't stop supporting SKC. That said, I really want to see this side get younger and more tactically flexible, and that won't happen under Vermes. Portland dumped Gio, and he has two final appearances int he last couple years. The Crew dumped Porter and he won MLS Cup and a Campeones Cup a year or so before he was let go. I don't get SKC management, because sport isn't this patient. I also hate that we're stuck in this rut. But I'm still gonna watch every match
I would equate the Eintract fan to being a Chiefs fan in KC. The Chiefs have been around forever and generations grew up cheering for them. The Chiefs sucked for years but everyone still bought the jerseys and went to the games. SKC is young in terms of sports franchises but as Kop said, he has kids growing up supporting the team. My kids do too. So the generational thing is happening for SKC. We are all on this forum cussing and discussing because we are Wizards/SKC supporters. I can't see myself as a supporter of any other team. I think we all want the same thing here; a better, competitive, and more entertaining team with a light at the end of the PV tunnel.
To be fair, the Chiefs are also, by the standards here, a new team The reality here is that the casual fans are all appalled by RB Leipzig and Hoffenheim, both of whom are in the first because of their newfound riches. Now, folks don't complain about BMunch and their old-money as much, which is not quite fair.
Thought of this thread watching the Squad Goals about the 2013 playoff run, specifically about 6:30 into this one, they're talking about the lockerroom, but Feilhaber makes some interesting comments about the team and their age and I couldn't help but compare it to the team and their age now.
Thanks for pointing that out. It makes sense, doesn't it? Older players are more likely to have wives and kids and, therefore, commitments outside of the team. Older players don't have lives revolving around the locker room. There is nothing wrong with that, but it would make for a different locker-room vibe. With an older group, it's less of a Blues Brothers mission from God, and more a job. To be fair, I've heard quite a few players say that for real, sustained, success, it has to be a job. If you allow yourself to get too high with the high points and too low with the low points, it's a problem. You have to always have the attitude that whatever happened, it's time to get back to work. as Ike says, the season is a grind. OTOH, most of this year's team would fit into what Seth called the "old guy" category, which on that side had Jimmy. Interesting tidbit: Ike is 34, Seth 36 and Benny 38. Melia and Zusi are now 37, Roger 36, JFR and Fontas 33. all 3 of the podcasters, coaches, could be added to our squad without looking out of place.
Decided to take a look at it real quick this morning, the average age of the 11 starters in MLS Cup 2013 was 25.33. Add the 2 subs and the average age goes to 26. Oriol Rosell - 21 Dom Dwyer - 23 CJ Sapong - 24 Chance Myers - 26 Matt Besler - 26 Seth Sinovic - 26 Graham Zusi - 27 Aurelien Collin - 27 Benny Feilhaber - 28 Subs Lawrence Olum - 29 Claudio Bieler - 29 This year KC has only 2 players younger than that that have started at least 10 league games this year (Davis, Voloder).
I am stealing Buzz's 2013 lineup by age to do a position by position with us that year v this year. I'm going with Melia as the starting keeper for this year because I think it's clear he is Vermes first choice. this is really much easier because we're still in a 4-3-3, though with marginally different tactics). I'm including Convey because he was on the roster in the early year at least and played. Keeper 2013 Jimmy 35 CBs Besler, 26, Collin, 27 Outside backs Chance 26, Seth 26 Dmid: Uri 21 Mids: Benny 28, Naga 30 Front 3 Dwyer, 23 Sapong, 24, Zusi, 27 First subs Olum 29, Bieler 29, Convey 29 2023 Timmy 37 Rosero, 29, Fontas, 33 Davis (please) 21 (or Zusi, 37) and Leibold 29 Radoja 30 Walter 29, Thommy 28 JFR 33, Pulido 32, Salloi 27 subs (common) Roger 36, Shelton 30, Kinda 29, Logan 23 So that makes the total age for 2013's main players to be 293, v 328 for 2023. It's higher if we go with Buzz's guess that Zusi is actually first choice. We are significantly older at every position except outside backs, where, as noted, we are if Zusi is actually first choice.Looking at it another way, footballers generally said to be in their prime (fully developed, not yet slowing down) between 24 and 29. With exceptions, they're cheaper before and after. Doesn't mean they are worthless, of course, but it's a general rule (I used the ESPN definition). By that measure, SKC in 2013 had 8 starters in their prime while in 2023 we have 5. The 2013 bench added three in their prime players, and one more if Ike was the next man, or not if it was Saad. So in their top 15, 11 in their prime. From our current bench, our team actually gets older, though Kinda adds one to the prime years. So 6 in their prime.
As so SKC loses another game by multiple goals to STL. I didn't watch the game because I knew that would be the outcome and there was little chance it would be any different. When PV made the conscience decision to build the team on the backs of older players by giving them multiple year contracts and not pursuing younger talent which the team could continue to build upon, he destined the team to be a perennial cellar dweller. PV was honest with what he did in the early years of his coaching career by making the best teams out of bargain players and playing hard nose defense. But, the league changed all around him by doing everything he was too stubborn to recognize or to proud to acknowledge. PV is stuck in a 2013 mindset looking backward while most of the league is looking to 2024 and beyond. The ownership has stuck with PV (loyalty is a good trait) but its time to leave PVs name on the stadium wall and move on. What he has done with the team in the last few years is nothing more than a pyramid scheme that has no sustainable foundation and is crumbling before our eyes. I'd like to see him go out on a high note, but with what he has built, PV is looking more and more like the Bernie Madoff of the MLS coaching world.
Getting your GM and head coach right, but as Twellman correctly mentions, its critical to separate the roles.
AMEN! Testify Brother! Likely now the only thing that could force PV out is the team truly quits on him. Is there no one left in the world that he has respect for that could get through to him? But then as a lifelong Royals fan I know the long suffering that can come from following a sportsball franchise. I have a respectful letter for the organization in work, as I have needed to be a more vocal STM for some time. Salt Lake is gonna be tougher now with the late win over LAFC, Crap!
Would Vermes agree to vacate one of his roles? DoF would seem most obvious, because his concept of how to build an MLS side is no longer valid. He can claim "so many injuries" all he wants, but today an MLS side has to have actual depth, and he built a roster on which he only trusts about half the players. I don't think the way he wants to play, with the right players 1 through 29, is a mistake. Tata is making it work in Miami. However, I don't know that SKC has the sort of money or ability to buy, recruit or create the right roster for this system. If he worked under a DoF or GM, would he be flexible enough to base his tactical approach on his talent? We haven't seen that. I do think it's statue time, which is sad because he's been massive for us, for decades.
Has anyone in MLS made more of a mess of their U-22 initiative signings than SKC? Three players, all on a level of money that indicates either MLS starter or MLS significant role player, yet we have one who starts and plays well (Logan) and two who are very much on the fringe of what Vermes sees as his useful roster in Tzone and Voloder.
How many other teams have the GM and Coach roles combined? Are there any left other than SKC? I may be off here and my thought on this might be totally invalid, but the two I most recently recall are Bob Bradley in Toronto and Bruce in NE. Now those two situations went sideways for different reasons, but I would say both are very much part of the MLS 1.0 era, which also describes PV. Actually, not sure I'd even have a point with this. Sometimes thinking out loud doesn't lead to anything poignant. All the same I'm going to leave this here for consideration.
Vanney is the coach and Sporting Director at the Galaxy with Kirovski as the TD, which is the same roles PV and Bliss have here.
Well, we all know the answer to that one. A firm hell no. He's like Bob Bradley. Its all or nothing. That said, PV NEEDS TO BE REMOVED OF THE DIRECTOR ROLL ASAP. The Academy is ranked one of the worst in MLS. Only one out of three U22s is contributing, but all were signed for $$$$$$. Contract extensions handed out to Shelton and Fontas. Croizet signed as a DP. Some of the worst MLS Free Agent signings in history. The CB situation since Besler/Opara is a travesty. Currently second oldest roster in MLS. In the absence of developing youth, he has turned to a roster depth building mechanism of bringing back guys that played here many years ago. Same guys, but older, slower, more broken and playing in a league that has evolved at hyperspeed. He is not a good game day coach, but he hasn't done anything well on the GM side besides the college draft. And that stopped being relevant a long time ago.
If that were to happen a new guy has to be brought in, because since Bliss was brought in as the TD and PV was named Sporting Director is really when it's taken a nose dive. Yes PV has final say, but Bliss has a HUGE part to play in the scouting, development aspect of things. Stuff I've heard about Bliss I can't say publicly have had me on the "#BlissOut" train for a lot longer than I've been on the #VermesOut one.
I’ve been on the #BlissOut side for a couple of years now. But last year I realized that you can’t just get rid of Bliss and expect things to change as long as PV is in there. It’s just not going to happen. The U22 issue stinks as some have already mentioned and the Academy is lame. When Jake Reid took over in 2016 the club lost the leadership that Robb Heineman provided and it’s been going down hill ever since. The way it looks right now is that PV calls all the shots and everyone else in the organization just rubber stamps his decisions. Until that changes, you are going to be supporting a bottom three club in the Western Conference year after year.
Both of those trains have run Sporting into the ground. The Club needs a complete house cleaning but like most people here I don’t think it will ever happen. I would like to hope the Cauldron would do a protest after the team is eliminated on Saturday or on Decision Day, but I see little chance of that. Maybe I will try to sneak in a sign.