Sign Isak or Give Arteta The Sack - Summer 2025 Transfer Thread

Discussion in 'Arsenal' started by CarlosKaiser, Feb 8, 2025.

  1. flyerhawk

    flyerhawk Member

    Feb 5, 2006
    Hoboken NJ
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They may value them equally but that likely means that they think Gyokeres is better now than Sesko.

    I would be pretty surprised if the club thought Sesko had a reasonable chance of being the next Isak.
     
  2. CarlosKaiser

    CarlosKaiser Member+

    Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 30, 2018
    Kansas City
    Why?

    It's pretty simple to me. Edu and the analytics staff he built wanted Sesko. If Edu had stayed, they would have signed Sesko. He left, Berta wanted Gyokeres from day one and what the holdover staff preferred was irrelevant.

    Gyokeres started saying in mid-June that he was only interested in Arsenal and dismissed any interest from United. My guess is behind the scenes everyone - Gyokeres, Sesko, Sporting, Leipzig, agents - knew Berta wanted Gyokeres. Which is why Viktor pushed for a move and Sesko never did. As soon as United came in with legit interest, Sesko pushed for a move in the same way Gyokeres did, also claims to be giving up wages to make the deal happen.

    I don't agree with @The Jitty Slitter saying a Sesko deal was dumb and Gyokeres was the logical choice, that takes Berta off the hook. Berta chose Gyokeres, if he is wrong he needs to be held accountable. But if he's right and he wins trophies, build him a statue.
     
    mebeSajid and DaPrince84 repped this.
  3. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    I didn't say it was dumb - i said the dumb money was in for him - so if we get in a bidding war with Utd, it would just drive the price through the roof, and maybe he ends up going to Utd so then you don't sign anyone
     
    InTheSun and Tonerl repped this.
  4. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    As I've pointed out, and Ted has now also pointed out, since Edu's time at the club, Sesko had a poor season where he went backwards

    We don't know what Arsenal's data says about Sesko now vs last fall

    What we do know is that Gyok's goal contribution per 90 is more than double Sesko

    The valuation of Sesko depends on him continuing his dev and reaching Gyok's level or beyond.
     
  5. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 16, 1999
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What does "held accountable" look like? Surely, you don't want him sacked for one transfer not working out----especially considering how we've all acknowledged it's a coin flip between the two (Ben vs Vik) as to who is the better bet.
     
  6. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Maybe it's because i listen to Bundesliga podcasts but the hype around Sesko was significantly lower this summer than last summer when Arsenal tried to get him. He really has been quite average. Sure he is only 22, but you don't want to see a player go backwards like that. In other words the risk of buying him this season is higher than last
     
  7. CarlosKaiser

    CarlosKaiser Member+

    Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 30, 2018
    Kansas City
    I'm sorry if I mischaracterized what you mean. Newcastle bid for Sesko, it didn't drive the price thru the roof. Player chose United and it was over.

    That doesn't match the reporting.

    I don't want to do what you are doing right now, saying it was just a coin flip and we can't blame him if he got it wrong. We're fans, he's the sporting director and it's his job to get it right.

    If he got this wrong but gets most of his other transfer dealings right and the club wins trophies, then no, of course you don't fire him. I think a big argument for Gyokeres is that it allowed other deals like Norgaard. But if they fail to win trophies and he got this deal wrong, yeah, he should be fired. I think that's reasonable.

    I hope he is right on Gyokeres! I just can't help but worry about how this can all go bad.
     
  8. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    I think they were only going to go through with it if they sold Isak. Once the Isak deal was off, they were out. But with the Isak deal on, they could afford essentially any price because Liverpool were having to finance it.


    What doesn't?

    Edu left early november 2024. What he thought can't be known after that as he was no longer at Arsenal. Sesko has been disappointing. Those are facts. You seem to be basing a lot on one line in a media article.
     
  9. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    I know you have to adjust for age and league, but check Sesko's fbref data - it's extremely disappointing last season - worse than the season before.
     
  10. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Gegenpressing made the same point - and not just on data. He had a very disappointing season. One has to hope that was because RBL were disappointing. In any event, one reason for him to stay at RBL was so he could develop further in a good environment. The fact that he didn't develop at all is a big red flag. He might have already tapped out. There is no guarantee that you can extrapolate his youth years to where he will be when he's 25.

    See Draxler for example.
     
  11. CarlosKaiser

    CarlosKaiser Member+

    Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 30, 2018
    Kansas City
    Edu left but the rest of the backroom staff stayed. The Athletic article said the same things but it's behind a paywall.

    https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6501696/2025/07/26/arsenal-viktor-gyokeres-inside-transfer/
     
  12. CarlosKaiser

    CarlosKaiser Member+

    Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 30, 2018
    Kansas City
    I don't think fbref stats are very useful in player evaluation. It's like going back to the 1980's and evaluating baseball players on RBI and batting average. The stats tell you something, but it's extremely surface level and based largely on context outside of the individual player's control.
     
  13. flyerhawk

    flyerhawk Member

    Feb 5, 2006
    Hoboken NJ
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But ultimately there was a risk with taking either one of them.
     
  14. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    OK listening to Transferflow - apparently Nicolas Jackson might be the other guy who is available, and likely better value

    TFlow agues that Utd are likely making the same mistake as before. Paying over the odds for a guy they need to be the best ever version of himself in order to see value, which takes up too much budget preventing them fixing their midfield.
     
  15. footykid

    footykid Member+

    Jan 10, 2005
    Mississauga, Ont
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    I dunno I look at his play and his stats and see that he has good physical attributes. What I don't see is that he has figured out the mechanism to turn his attributes into goals.

    If he does he might be WC because he is physically a freak of nature.

    What is see from Vic is that he has figured out how he scores goals in a reproducible manner. The question mark for him is does his mechanism work against better defensive systems and the physical freaks who play defence in the EPL. Personally I think Vic scores goals in France, which to me satisfies if he can compete physically. The question is can he score against good defensive systems or systems that minimize the space for shooting.

    The thing I like the best about Vic is he has that janky reaction shot machined into his body. Similar to Trossard, I don't worry that if he is in the box and ball lands that his shot will get instantly blocked. Unlike say a Martinelli who has a very long shooting motion.

    My other concern is that we don't pass to make shots for other players. Almost all of our passes are ball progression or possession passes.
     
  16. mebeSajid

    mebeSajid Member+

    Feb 16, 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I think a dive into the fbref data shows that, as underwhelming as Sesko's numbers were last season, at least some of that was because Leipzig was a tire fire. Sesko had more deeper touches and far fewer touches in dangerous areas.

    The fee is bonkers, of course, so fair play to Leipzig for managing to sell high after that season. United don't have the structure in place to take advantage of an elite striker, let alone develop one, so it should be hilarious to watch.

    It does make me think that Liverpool "won" the transfer window by getting Ekitike for a fee that's less crazy, if Ekitike can hold up physically.
     
    The Jitty Slitter repped this.
  17. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Yes - it is definitely true that Leipzig were also disappointing last season, which might have stalled his dev. But that could also be bad in terms of his future development!
     
    mebeSajid repped this.
  18. mebeSajid

    mebeSajid Member+

    Feb 16, 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Bad team messing with the development of a promising striker is the Rasmus Hojlund story.
     
    The Jitty Slitter repped this.
  19. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Interestingly if we could have found a younger Trossard of 22-24 outputs we would have snapped him up. A lot of contribution for a guy who cost around 30m and better than Sesko by some distance.

    Who knows what Sesko might become but it seems a wild gamble.
     
  20. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    it’s interesting Teds lot seem to think Jackson is better value than Sesko and that Newcastle might go for him.

    However it seems like Isak won’t move now?
     
  21. And_ROOS

    And_ROOS Member+

    Dec 30, 2006
    Melbourne, Aus
    Isak is 100% gone. Theres no coming back for him now at Newcastle and Howe has him separated from the main group. I assume its Liverpool he ends up at but he won't be at Newcastle this season.
    Newcastle know it too, its why they will end up with Jackson and another 30ish million striker.

    If Gyokeres is OK but scores crucial goals (because an OK striker will still score 15ish goals a season) and we win trophies no one will care because they will be goals Havertz and Merino can't or don't score. If one of those trophies is the Champions League it will be money very well spent if his goals either get us to the final or win it for us.
    What Sesko does or becomes is only relevant if we win nothing and he leads his club (likely Man U) to trophies at our expense. Or if he becomes peak R9 in 2 years time and is a beast of a striker for 5 or 6 years after that while Gyokeres does his best Chamakh impression.
     
  22. chjoak

    chjoak Member+

    Jun 17, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Seeing some rumors out of Italy that Napoli is interested in Zinchenko
     
  23. CarlosKaiser

    CarlosKaiser Member+

    Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 30, 2018
    Kansas City
    Also linked to Fenerbahçe. Supposedly Arsenal have suggested he work out personal terms first and then they will talk fee. Definitely an implication that wages are an issue and they might have to settle for a lesser fee to move him on.
     
  24. chjoak

    chjoak Member+

    Jun 17, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Seeing some supposed "tier 1" sources out if Turkey suggesting they have made a. Official offer. Same source claim Jose wants OZ as a #6.
     
    CarlosKaiser repped this.
  25. CarlosKaiser

    CarlosKaiser Member+

    Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 30, 2018
    Kansas City
    sp*rs going after Eze to replace the injured Maddison
     

Share This Page