Sigi Schmid - should there be a role for him with the national teams?

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Sandon Mibut, Oct 21, 2002.

  1. Sandon Mibut

    Sandon Mibut Member+

    Feb 13, 2001
    With the Galaxy's culmination title, I wonder if Sigi Schmid should get some sort of a role with the USSF or be talked about as a potential successor or alternative to Arena.

    A lot of us, myself included, have always lauded Bob Bradley as Arena's heir-apparent but if you compare their resumes, Schmid is as successful and qualified, if not more, than Bradley.

    --------------Bradley--------Schmid
    MLS Seasons----5-------------4
    MLS CUPS-------1-------------1
    FINALS----------2-------------3
    US OPEN CUPS---2-------------1*
    CONCACAF-------0-------------1
    Supporters Shield--0------------1

    * - LA plays in Open Cup final Thursday.

    While Bradley has experience as an MLS assistant, an Olympic assistant and occassional national team assistant, Schimd was a national team assistant under Bora for 18 months, including the 94 World Cup, and coached the U20 team from 98 thru the 99 World Youth Championships.

    Both also coached in the college ranks, with Bradley taking Princeton to one Final Four and Schmid winning 3 NCAA titles.

    So, for all that Schmid has accomplished, I'd like to think he has something to offer the national team or youth national teams. While I don't see him leaving the Galaxy to coach a youth national team, I'd like to see Arena incoportate him as a part-time assistant though I certainly understand that Arena prefers coaches he's closer with and I don't think Schmid is part of that clique.
     
  2. Nutmeg

    Nutmeg Member+

    Aug 24, 1999
    I think you answered your own question. Arena has a group of coaches with whom he is very tight. Sigi, although truly a great coach, is not one of them.

    I also happen to think that given the choice between Bob Bradley and Sigi Schmidt, I'd take Sigi.
     
  3. Shaster

    Shaster Member+

    Apr 13, 1999
    El Cerrito, CA, USA
    You're wrong. Sigi and Klinsman did the scouting of Mexican team for WCQ for Arena.
     
  4. ursula

    ursula Member

    Feb 21, 1999
    Republic of Cascadia
    I think that Arena talks on a fairly regular basis from his longtime colleague, Schmid. However about Sigi actually leading a team while still the LA coach, I doubt it and I cite Arena's 96 Olympic experience as evidence. Bruce has said many times since that coaching both the Olympic team and DCU at the same time was too much for him. (And remember how bad DCU started out the initial MLS season; they didn't start to get good until after the Olympics when Arena was ready to devote his full time attentions to them.) So I don't think that Arena would recommend any MLS coach also take over a Gnats team.

    Be sure though that Arena asks Sigi's opinions on his LA players, other MLS players and asks him to do scouting as time permits. I think the US is fortunate that there aren't any destructive rivalries among the major american coaches and that they are all supporting each other.
     
  5. Nutmeg

    Nutmeg Member+

    Aug 24, 1999
    OK. Sorry about that, hadn't heard it. I thought Myernick was handling scouting for Arena.

    If it's true, that really is great. Sigi will be an excellent resource for Arena, if he truly is using him.
     
  6. Sachin

    Sachin New Member

    Jan 14, 2000
    La Norte
    Club:
    DC United
    I believe this was before Mooch took over that job full time.

    Perhaps Sigi should be the next Olympic coach. Just a thought.

    Sachin
     
  7. kyledane

    kyledane Member

    Jan 28, 2000
    Near San Francisco
    I'm a bit biased in that I've been a Sigi supporter since his days at my alma mater, UCLA. But I think he would have been at the top of any post-Arena list even prior to this season. He's maintained a consistent winner despite a revolving door LA roster. This year certainly adds to his resume, but it is more the icing on the cake, rather than a "breakthrough."

    I look at this as important more because of the fact that he's worked directly with something close to (or maybe greater than) a majority of the US player pool either with the USA, UCLA or the Galaxy.

    I doubt that a coach of Sigi's importance (he's also the Galaxy's director of player personnel, remember) would have the time to take on anything more than an advisory role with the national team program, unless they were going to hire him as the full Nats head coach.
     
  8. lond2345

    lond2345 Member

    Aug 19, 2002
    USA
    if it wasnt for Ruiz Sigi wouldnt have a job at the moment.
     
  9. Various Styles

    Various Styles Member+

    Mar 1, 2000
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    CD Chivas de Guadalajara
    Sigi Schmid -

    If it wasnt for Mathis, Arena wouldnt have a job at the moment :D
     
  10. flanoverseas

    flanoverseas New Member

    Mar 2, 2002
    Xandria
    If it weren't for C Blanco, Maestroeni wouldn't have a bitch :D
     
  11. The Truth Commission

    Mar 29, 2000
    Parts Unknown

    If I'm not mistaken, Boob Bradley has won only 1 US Open Cup.

    The best role for Sigi and the National Team would be the taste tester of the team meals.
     
  12. prk166

    prk166 BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 8, 2000
    Med City
    You have to think that LA would've found a way to win this year without his goals. They've done it plenty of times in the past.
     
  13. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Re: Re: Sigi Schmid - should there be a role for him with the national teams?

    You're mistaken. '98 and '00.

    Sigi's real position with the nats:

    Conditioning coach. Or maybe team dietician.
     
  14. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    Bradley v Sigi--Another Perspective

    It is always been my view that the best coaches in soccer are those who put their players in a POSITION to win on a CONSISTENT basis. But in the end, it is the players who win the game, not the coaches.

    Thus, for example, the fact that Bob and Sigi have only one MLS title is in my view LESS significant than that they have had a number of legitimate shots at the Cup. In 2001, Bob was one Wynalda sitter from an Armas feed from going to his THIRD cup final in FOUR years.

    So Sandon's comparisons are an excellent starting point on making comparisons between the two coaches, and other coaches for that matter. But I also would argue that there are other important differences between the two, differences that are somewhat more subtle, but which may be, in fact, considerably more significant. There are three I would focus on:

    1. Doing more with less -- Sigi's three NCAA titles are impressive, no doubt. And comparing UCLA post-Sigi, with basically the same access to the same youth national team talent pipeline, it's clear that UCLA's success while SIGI was there is attributable in large part to Sigi.

    But taking a NON-scholarship school, an IVY league school, to the FINAL four??

    Bob's ability to do more with less was perhaps most evident this year, given the hospital ward that was the Fire roster. And getting journeymen talent like Curtin, Walsh, Vaudreil, Perez to continue to scrape and claw into playoff contention, and forcing a game 3 against the future cup finalist, is telling.

    2. Eye for talent Sigi is the kind of coach who takes relatively easily assessable talent, and molds strong teams. He did it at UCLA -- better know a US Youth National team West -- and also with the Galaxy. But Bob takes ostensibly "second" level talent, and takes it to the next level. Whether it's Thornton behind Meola, Armas behind Pena, Razov with a career stuck in neutral, he has the uncanny knack of knowing who CAN be a SIGNIFICANT difference maker who ISN'T one now. Was Jim Curtin on ANYONE'S radar screen?

    3. Youth player development -- Think of Josh Wolff, to DaMarcus Beasley, to Carlos Bocanegra, to Kelly Gray. Bob has taken youth players and taken them further and faster than any other coach probably could. To wit:

    --Josh Wolff was brought along with a short and a long-term plan, from being a 60-minute off the bench option in 1998 to a first choice starter.

    --It is telling that DaMarcus started his upward climb AFTER Sigi let him go. Again, another long and short-term plan from Bob, getting DMB to enhance his defensive skills to accompany his blazing speed and hard heavy shot.

    --We've seen the SAME pattern again with Carlos, continuing to develop his attacking game, with good near post carries and selective overlaps.

    In contrast, look at Sigi's three top young players. Califf, taken just a few slots below Carlos in the 2000 draft, has arguably struggled at the professional level, though began to improve this year. Victorine and Vagenas have virtues, but it's likely that they will be fringe national team pool players at best. Of course, Sigi has deployed them well in his tactical schemes both this year a last (Victorine as forward last year, midfielder this year).

    But I believe Sigi picked the V boys in large part because of FAMILIARITY -- he already knew what they could do, and it was the easily assessable characteristics that made them fit right in. Bob, in contrast, sees beyond.

    Those who've read my comments on Sigi know that I have a tremendous amount of respect for him. He is a very insightful tactician, a great game day coach, and a guy who deploys his talent with maximum effectiveness. In this respect, Sigi may be better, though just slightly better, than Bob.

    But Bob brings some special qualities to the table that I think are unique in US coaching today.
     
  15. MLSNHTOWN

    MLSNHTOWN Member+

    Oct 27, 1999
    Houston, TX
    Re: Re: Sigi Schmid - should there be a role for him with the national teams?

    I missed this thread. Otherwise I wouldn't have let it get so many legitimate posts without a fat reference. Sheesh everyone must be sleeping or something.
     
  16. Martin Fischer

    Martin Fischer Member+

    Feb 23, 1999
    Kampala. Uganda
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Persuasive points, Karl. I do think the criticism of Schmid relating to D. Beasley is a little unfair as it is hardly surprising that Beasley got better as he got more experience, which, luckily for Bradley, happened when he was with Bradley.
     
  17. Delta Blues

    Delta Blues New Member

    Jun 25, 1999
    King Willieville
    Re: Re: Re: Sigi Schmid - should there be a role for him with the national teams?

    I think Sigi's best motivational tool is to tell the Gals that if they don't shape up, they'll be living in a van, DOWN BY THE RIVER!!! ;)
     
  18. Nutmeg

    Nutmeg Member+

    Aug 24, 1999
    Certainly Bradley's Final 4 appearance is impressive. But is it MORE impressive than Sigi's accomplishments @ UCLA? That's debatable, to say the least.

    Then we look at the Fire vs the Galaxy and we can better compare apples to apples. You mention a number of journeymen Bradley has used in his tenure with the Fire, and they are all good points. But to assume that Sigi has been working with a team of all-stars in LA is wrong. Bradley, in his run with the Fire, had access to multiple National Team regulars at the top of their game, including Thornton, CJ Brown, Armas, Beasley, and Razov. Not to mention Marsh, who you describe as a journeyman but who Bruce Arena considered good enough to play in a critical WCQ.

    While it may be true that Sigi also had Beasley on his roster, let's keep things in perspective in that DaMarcus was a VERY young player still in school without the experience that eventually helped him to become the player he is today. I don't want to take away Bradley's role in that. He was a big part of DMB's development. But just as important was the experience DMB accrued by playing day-in, day-out at a top level.

    And if you'd like to look at a journeyman roster, the Galaxy are near the top. Sigi has been consistently excellent with less-known players like Frye, Mullan, Moreno, and castoffs like Chris Allbright and Alexi Lalas. Sigi is a master at developing TEAMS, much in the mold of Bruce Arena.

    Here I strongly disagree.

    Could the same not be said of Bruce Arena? The underlying question is why is this talent "relatively easily accessible?" Good players want to play for good coaches. It's that simple. You are damning Sigi with faint praise. Coach K at Duke does the same thing with Men's Basketball. Would he be MORE of a coach if he had less talent? No, because if Coach K moved, chances are the talent would move with him.

    Again, I am not saying that Sigi and Bradley are worlds apart in this area. What I am saying is that the talent Sigi had at UCLA was amassed because of the program Sigi built at UCLA. Keep in mind that recruiting young soccer players in California is not an easy job. Besides the strong programs within the state - Santa Clara, San Diego, etc - you have a couple of coaches up here in the Northwest - one in Portland, another in Seattle - who poach regularly from Sigi's backyard. That so many good players chose UCLA over the other options is, in my mind, a credit to Sigi, not a detraction.

    Then you bring up the injury-plagued season that Bradley dealt with this past year. Very good point, and a job very well done by Bradley.

    If you want to look at a ransacked team, however, look no farther than what happened at LA just a couple of years ago. The Luis Hernandez trade would have completely leveled a lot of lesser coaches. Sigi lost so many key players, against his will, it was unbelievable. History may look at that trade as the worst in MLS history. Sigi lost many of his team's cornerstones for the future, including Mathis and Franchino. But because he is a great coach, Sigi instead rebuilt his team to the MLS Cup Champions in a short time.

    Again, this is an area where Bradley is certainly to be commended. But is he THAT much better than Sigi, or is he even better AT ALL?

    I'm not sure. Sigi played a HUGE part in Clint Mathis' development, and he certainly didn't turn out too bad. Cobi has transformed into almost a completely different player under Sigi.

    What Sigi is VERY good at as evaluating talent and deploying them successfully, which seems more in-line with the job of the MNT coach than developing players, which Bruce Arena has said repeatedly is not the job of the MNT coach. Having said that, Sigi is still pretty darn good at it.

    This point seemingly directly contradicts your first point that Bradley has done more with less. Califf was a lower draft pick than Bocanegra, but he's developed into a player that during the last Gold Cup Bruce Arena called one of his most promising prospects. His improvement this year has led to a recall to the National Team, and I am not convinced he'll be a fringe player at best. Victorine and Vagenas have yet to be bled into the National Team, so who knows how key they will be in Arena's plans? Both have a very tough road ahead, not because they aren't good players, but because there might be BETTER players competing with them. Victorine will be up against Beasley, and Vagenas will be competing with Mastroeni, Reyna, and John O'brien in central midfield. Not an enviable task.

    As far as selecting players based on FAMILIARITY - there is another coach who has done this extensively. One who you hold in the highest of regards. His name is Bruce Arena. In fact, in a thread I started a while back that compared Arena to Dynasty coaches of other sports, this is a trait that nearly ALL the best coaches do. Coach K does it at Duke. Joe Torre does it with the Yankees, and Phil Jackson does it with first the Bulls and now the Lakers.

    Like Arena, Coach K, Torre, and Jackson Sigi builds the core of his team with players of familiarity, then supplements that core with players "beyond" his core, like Ruiz, like Allbright, like Marshall, like Lalas. Again, this shouldn't be seen as a mark AGAINST Sigi, this should be seen as a point in his favor.

    I think it is probably true that you do hold Sigi in high regard. But here I think your comparisons are unfairly measured.

    I don't think there is a right and wrong answer between Bradley and Sigi. If I had to choose between the two, it would be an extremely tough call. But based on his tradition of building winning programs - dynasty-like programs - wherever he's coached, right now I'd take Sigi.
     
  19. flanoverseas

    flanoverseas New Member

    Mar 2, 2002
    Xandria
    Dear Karl and Nutmeg,

    You're posts sometimes seem like they'll never end.

    The Hundred Years War
     
  20. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    I'll keep my response to him short -- promise.
     
  21. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    If I had as many youth national team players as Sigi had, I'd better go nearly every year. That Bradley went, even once, with a much weaker pool to choose from is telling, seems to me. But Sigi's NCAA accomplishments are significant.

    Last I looked, Princeton and UCLA were both Division I NCAA teams, so I think apples to apples applies here.

    All the guys you mentioned here were basically taken off the scrapheap by Bradley. Brown was stuck in D3, Thorton behind Meola. Razov and Armas were treading water in LA. They BECAME national teamers under Bradley. Hard to know if Beasley would have developed into the phenom we see today under Sigi. I know he was happy, though, to get out.

    Really, that was a courtesy call, though Marsch (Chris Armas anybody??) is a LOT better player than most think.
    But then Sigi LET DMB get away. Why? As I said, I believe DMB was happy to get out. These things happen for a reason. And then once IN Chicago, what happens to DMB's career? It skyrockets. Pretty telling, it seems to me.
    I admire Sigi's team building skills as much as you do, and yes, Sigi has had his share of journeyman types. But Bradley has done a better job at taking players with less-than-stellar resumes and making them into top club and, in some case, top national team players, and a better and FASTER job of it with younger players.
    You jump to an erroneous conclusion. My point was that Sigi has opted for the familiar, the known, particular with Vagenas and Victorine. That's a perfectly fine approach, and it has worked very well for him. But Bradley has the ability, and its uncanny I think, to PROJECT certain players, ones you wouldn't think of (like Brown in 98 or Curtin in 01), put them in important roles, and help them succeed.
    You make a good case here, though I would hesitate to call Franchino a "cornerstone" player.

    No question that this year was Sigi's best coaching job, even if he didn't win the final.

    However, I thought Mathis was underachieving in LA, but there we disagree. I would attribute Cobi's "transformation" largely to Cobi himself actually beginning to master some technical skills after all these many years, (though even his corner kicks can sometimes be worse than a U19 travel player).

    Won't dispute that...but Bradley sees possibilities where others do not.

    As for a national team coach's qualities/strengths, it seems to me the ability to evaluate talent AND to see beyond the obvious is a lot better than just being able to evaluate talent. See Frankie Hejduk at left back.

    We'll see about Califf; I am skeptical, but you never know. He was a lower draft pick than Carlos, but not much lower. Meanwhile, when you see the development arc of a Bocanegra vs a Califf, or Victorine/Vagenas vs a Beasley/Wolff....well, the contrast admits of its obvious answer.

    I do, and they're not.

    Again, I go back to my original premise. A good coach is one who puts his players consistently into a POSITION to win. Both have done that quite well in that regard.

    But my money is on Bradley in '06.
     
  22. Preston North End

    Feb 17, 2000
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Karl, DMB never practiced or played for Galaxy. He was with the U17's until, what the end of November 1999. He was traded to Chicago prior to the start of preseason training in 2000.

    How can he have improved so much more under Bradley?
     
  23. Sandon Mibut

    Sandon Mibut Member+

    Feb 13, 2001
    Karl and Nutmeg -

    Here's the inside 411 on why Beasley didn't stay with the Galaxy.

    When Sigi was coach of the U20 team, Jamar Beasley was in the player pool. At the time, he was a highly touted prospect but Sigi benched him in favor of college players like Chris Albright and McKinley Tennyson. This did not sit well with the Beasley clan and they began to have a dislike and distrust of Sigi.

    Soon after the U20s competed in the WYC, Sigi became coach of the Galaxy. That summer, DaMarcus signed with the league and was assigned to LA but he NEVER trained with the team or was ever considered for playing time because of his commitments to John Ellinger's U17 team.

    That off-season, Beasley stayed in Bradenton to finish high school and he let Ellinger know he didn't want to play for Sigi so Ellinger helped convince Sigi to trade DaMarcus.

    Sigi needed a center back and was very high on Califf so when the opportunity to work a trade that was a win-win came up, Sigi didn't hesitate to pull the trigger. Never did he think DaMarcus couldn't play but he figured if he wasn't going to happy playing for him then why keep him when he could get a player that plugged a hole.
     
  24. beineke

    beineke New Member

    Sep 13, 2000
    Let's get real here. UCLA sells itself ... nobody from SoCal is going to choose Portland instead. In addition to the best local talent in the country, Sigi also had an incredible location for attracting non-local players such as Brad Friedel. On top of that, he had a talent like Cobi Jones show up as an uninvited walk-on. Heck, UCLA even had a great recruiting class this year, when they didn't have a coach.

    Still, nobody should question Sigi's ability to spot and develop talent. Over the course of three years, he turned Carlos Bocanegra from a standout wide receiver into a defender who was polished enough to win MLS Rookie of the Year. In 1999, he didn't have a whole lot of talent to choose from (he uncovered Cory Gibbs from Brown), but he built a U-20 team that upset England and Cameroon.
     
  25. beineke

    beineke New Member

    Sep 13, 2000
    Thanks for the scoop, Sandon, but wasn't it Albright and Twellman who started ahead of Jamar?
     

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