Should the catholic church change & listen to the voice of the people?

Yeah, that's mother********ing ridiculous. People make mistakes. Whatever happened to forgiveness? The Church is full of ********ing ********. Oh, and those annulments are next to impossible to get.

 

Not if you have money, influence and power. Any one will do, but all three is a slamdunk.

 

What happened to honoring a vow you took?

 

It may be generational thing (although, as a gentleman, it would be EXTREMELY improper of me to make such an assumption). My wife and I were both raised Catholic (she went all the way to Confirmation). But she really didn't know what the hell "rhythm" was.

Plus, I have a healthy sense of where the Church ends and where religion, spirituality, and morality begins. As someone who grew up DEEP in the Catholic Church, I can say that it is as ready to develop a doctrine of spiritual sexual well-being as the DMV is ready to end teen drunk driving. They're both just bureaucracies there to maintain a system, not to move forward and fix problems.

And the idea of canonizing John Paul II makes me sick to my stomach.

 

If memory serves, for one to become a saint don't they have to have 3 miracles to their credit?

I am not familar with any from JPII.

As for the Church changing, well since they seem to think that only Europeans should be pope, and since they blow off America and South America I say let them have their church, it is time for the "New World" to have our own reformation.

 

Did she go to a Catholic high school? And if so, when? Because I thought the sex ed program incorporated into my high school's biology program was excellent. Basically it was "don't do it" but here are some things you should know. I'm sure the way they officially justified it was because it was information we'd need when we got married.

The school wasn't a bastion of progressiveness, though. One girl got pregnant a few weeks before graduation and everyone had to keep it secret because if the PTB had found out, she wouldn't have been able to walk at graduation, even though she wasn't even close to showing. However, I think that the school admin knew but pretended not to.

That particular bunch of Dominican nuns were extremely good people.

I hope you're right.

You and me, both.

 

The other day I heard that the miracles have to happen after the candidate's death. Intercessions and things, I guess. In the same report they said that the Vatican has gotten oodles of claims of JPII related miracles - healings and the like. So they have to investigate all of those.

 

What happened to people change?

 

Why get married?

 

You aren't required to live with your spouse. You just aren't allowed to get married again.

 

Again what happened to people change, as do circumstances, as do lives? And once again, what happened to people make mistakes? See, the Church sees everything as black and white when we live in a multi-colored world.

 

You're perfectly demonstrating society's devaluation of marriage.
Having some problems, not working out the way you want, met someone better, want to do something different with your life? Take a mulligan, get divorced.

A society that has a 50% marriage failure rate pontificating about protecting the institution of marriage by keeping those homos away from it. Hilarious.

 

I can criticize whoever the ******** I want to criticize. And being that I am Catholic, and the Church is not supposed to be the hierarchy but the congregation, I have every right to tell the Church to change. In fact, it's my duty. So ******** off and go stab Han Kung's back and lead the modern Inquisition.

 

As for people "making mistakes" there are provisions for annulling a wedding. I read up on this earlier today and was suprised at the extent to which most failed marriages could probably qualify.

An annullment basically invalidates the entire marriage. Due to whatever reason the marriage wasn't entered into in good faith by both parties so it was never technically a "marriage."

It's a sort of a grueling process, though, so people don't usually bother with it unless they're trying to remarry.

But it's an out for people whose spouses turn out to be lunatics or wife-beaters or something.

 

All I can say is ******** the Catholic Church. Its totally absurd and disengenious to say the CC in any way promotes the idea of sex for pleasure. Perhaps our hip American CC's have found a way to promote the rythym method - big whoop.

Fiddlestick does a pretty good job of explaining the CC official position and the logic behind it. To me, its principle over practicality. Over 2M dead in Afric is not hyperbole - its fact. In Manilla, health planning clinics are shutting down because of the influence of the CC.

Sperm is sacred and we are dirty evil scoundrals. Real uplifting message. CC? Thanks, but not ********ing way.

And yes, thanks, I'm still bitter my grandfather was ex-communicated for marrying a protestant.

 

Listening to NPR on the way to work this morning, I see.......

 

The Catholic position on pre marital sex is almost exactly the same as numerous other faiths-Orthodox Judaism,Islam,Eastern Orthodox,most Protestant faiths,etc. If the Catholic Church is so irrelevant,why does this thread exist?

Revolt,your grandfather was never excommunicated-that would pretty much require the Pope or a general council specifically singling out the name of your grandfather. I appreciate your faux angst though.

 

Don't know anything about Revolt's grandad, but I do know that excommunication is not that involved. It happened very easily and for very similar reasons in Ireland for many, many years. I have some family who were excommunicated in the early 1900s for various 'sins,' one of which was marrying a Protestant. trust me, they were excommunicated, they knew they were excommunicated and the whole town also knew. Perhaps things have changed now, but not then.

 

Well, he was booted out of the local CC in Bloomfield, NJ back in the 1930's. If I got my terminology wrong, boo on me. Otherwise, thanks for the faux understanding.

 

****************. If you can't receive the sacraments, which you can't if you remarried after a divorce, then you're effectively excommunicated.

 

Agree.

 

You need to improve your social life

Anyway, when I ask advice about something, I prefer to ask an expert. If I need advice about my sex life, in order not to get AIDS, I'm not going to trust some bishop who, in theory , has never had sex. Just goes against common sense.

I agree with you. Please become a minority, stop bugging me and fade away.

PS, as an ex-catholic apostathe living in a country of theoretical catholic majority whose bishops usually try to meddle in politics, I hope I don't qualify as a ""liberal opressor"".

I thought catholic faith wasn't about freedom of conscience, taht's protestantism.

I see bishops in the media practically every day, trying to tell elected oficials what they should do to conform to their whims.

 

Whoever said that the catholic church would ruin itself by changing with the times is an idiot. Over the centuries time has caught up with many 'morals' that were once defended and promoted by the church. History shows that the church hasn't always been right and that is a downright fact. Slavery being a good example, btw, women's rights being another.

I'm a catholic and I wish the catholic church would get its priorities straight. What sets the catholic church apart from other religions traditionally is the message of all encompassing love, the love of and for god and fellow man. You wouldn't conclude that from what's come out of the Vatican of late would you now. It's all negative, don't do this and don't do that, it's like we're back in the 1940s when my gran got a visit from the priest asking her why she only had two kids. It's pathetic.

The way catholics are looking at the Vatican now from my neck of the woods is that it's just a symbol of the catholic church, nothing more and nothing less. I've said this before: I don't know a single catholic who lives by the Vatican's current rules. So if the Vatican wants to isolate itself even further from their flock, they're doing a very good job.

 

Or rich. Here in Spain a famous singer was granted annullment in record time.