Should Muslims Be Blamed for the own Empire?

What a bunch of crap.

Mistreating people who belong to another race/religion/political group etc has always been and will always be. It's not like one specific group should be blamed more than another.

Should we blame the Jews for stubbornly wanting to live in Israel and thereby fully accepting all future consequences? Isn't it in fact their fault the whole Palestine issue got out of hand the way it did? Do the Jews in Israel not treat a lot of Palestinians very bad? Do they not steal their water?
I don't think you would agree with that right?

Please don't post biased garbage like this anymore. If you have a problem with muslims just say it. If you're not man enough to do so just say nothing at all. This is pathetic.

 

Are you familiar with the concept of a self-fulfilling prophecy?

 

Kappa = Israeli Alex

 

Dario Gradi = Crewe Alex

 

Yes. I'm also familiar with the fact that this kind of behaviour is programmed into every single human being. Millions can reason with themselves and decide that it's wrong. Some can't and like it or not, at certain times they can get many others to stop reasoning and give in to this instinct.

So I don't think it has as much to do with a 'self-fullfilling prophecy' as it has to do with reality. It's the way it is.



Segroves get a clue.

 

Well, according to you all people should be blamed for something their ancestors did?

What exactly do you mean by the "unholy alliance in the beginning of the 20th century with Germany"?

Just curious!

domingo

 

Let's blame god.

 

Re: Re: Should Muslims Be Blamed for the own Empire?

Well, the left seeks to do that to whites, males, Christians, Jews, etc...I think Kappa's point is that that line of thinking is completely ludicrous. Muslims today shouldn't be blamed for the evils perpetrated by the Muslim empires, just as American whites shouldn't be blamed for slavery, Christians shouldn't be blamed for the Crusades, etc.

It's a well-known fact that many Arab leaders, especially Egyptians and Palestinians--many of whom later became leaders of the pan-Arabist movement, including Nasser and Sadat (and possibly Arafat as well, I can't remember to be honest with you)--collaborated with the Nazis during WW2. Eastern European Muslims fought with the Nazi SS and Arab leaders collaborated with the Nazis on their shared ideals of anti-Semitism and anti-Britishism (not so much anti-Americanism yet) to aid the German war machine in North Africa and the Middle East and fight against the Allied troops in that region.

 

Maybe it's because they didn't. Until it began to decay during the 19th century, the Ottoman empire had a significantly better record on what we would today define as human rights then did any of their Christian contemporaries. Even in the 19th century harmful behavior buy Turks was more a matter of the central government being too feeble to restrain its less savory elements than anything else.

For most of the existance of the Ottoman empire, the Sultan was also the titular head of the Greek Orthodox Church and the government often acted to protect Greek Christians. They certainly treated them better than Catholic countries did at the time.

After 1492, many of the Jews who fled Spain went to Thessaloniki in what is now Greece. In the 1500s it was in--you guessed it--the Ottoman Empire.

In short, the Ottomans, for most of their history were much more like the Roman Empire than the European Empires of the 18th and 19th centuries. As long as you acknowledged their political authority, they didn't much care what god you worshipped, or what language you spoke. And because they regarded their acquisitions as part of a single political entity, they had no colonies and wanted every province to thrive economically.

I am sure that the Asia political figure you referred to was just posturing, but he was accidently correct in that British and French did more lasting harm in the Middle East in the few years they controlled it than the Ottoman's did in 4 or 5 centuries.

 

lol

 

Re: Re: Re: Should Muslims Be Blamed for the own Empire?

I was wondering about the word "beginning", becuase I don´t think 1941 was the beginning of the century.
And collaboration was everywhere. Dutch, Belgians, French, Spanish, Ukrainians, even Russians fought in "legions" against the Soviets. So no one should blame any nation as a whole for that!

domingo

 

No we should not "blame Muslims" for what certain leaders in the past did.

It is appropriate to recognize that the world is how it was today because certain wars were fought, certain alliances were made, and certain people came out on the losing end. That's why I really have little tolerance for people who whine about this or that being "illegitmate" because it is a remnant of colonialism, imperialism or the like.

At the same time, looking forward, we should allow everyone to live an independent life.

I don't blame Muslims today for the Ottoman Empire's sins. I do recognize that they are in part in certain predicaments because the Ottoman Empire's sins came crashing down on them.

To the extent they want to restore the era of former glory, I have no problem with us "imperialists" scoffing it off with armed force. To the extent they want to move forward and peacefully coexist, I welcome them with open arms.

 

Let's blame the English for EVERYTHING!!

 

This is why BigSoccer is so useful. Without people like Kappa, I would have had no opinions on Israeli soccer. Now I know that I really f***cking hate Beitar Jerusalem.

 

Probably the best post ever!

domingo

 

Pretty tough being a lefty Zionist, isn't it?

 

Let's make a memorial each year with tv shows, fictions and so on to remember the genocide of armenians in Turkey.

A movie per year and I think ppl worldwide will start caring about.

Actually most of them will learn something they didn't know (if they're lucky history schoolbooks give 2 lines to armenian genocide).

That would also help Armenian PR for their problems with Azerbaijan.

 

I know, I know. I thought the left was supposed to be AGAINST the fascist, sexist, intolerant, anti-Semitic theocrats....

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Should Muslims Be Blamed for the own Empire?

Fair enough. And admittedly the Ottoman Empire isn't as good an example of Muslim evil as the original Muslim empire that was founded under Muhammad himself, but the point still stands.

I don't mean fighting in "legions" against the Soviets--which was perfectly understandable, at least to the Eastern Europeans from whose perspective the Soviets were just as bad if not worse than the Nazis--I mean collaborating with the Nazis to undermine British (and later American) positions in North Africa, and to rid Europe and the Middle East of Jews.

 

The Zionists in British Palestine also collaborated with the Nazis to rid Palestine of British control. Does that make them better, worse, or similar to those perfidious, pernicious Arabs whose image infests your tiny little mind?

 

"The Zionists," in fact 30,000 of them in British Palestine, fought for the British Army during WW2.

 

Must have been different Zionists. Or women ones.
You know how it is ... one week blue, next week red.