Thanks for the background. And good on you in Aus for having the gumption to turn things around despite the chimes of naysayers. If only Canada would learn from our sibling nation in the southern hemisphere.
One guy with a lot of money, or a number of people with a bit of money will both do the job. Those who succeed make their own luck.
^ I hear what you are saying, I was mostly joking with my statement. Soccer in Canada is changing already but it's small thing at lower levels that are going unnoticed. Montopoli and Hart seem to have more influence than ever, and they are actual instituting some technical reform. I believe that the CSA is sincere in their "Wellness to the World Cup" program, but it's going to take time.
Sorry, misinterpreted your message. I certainly agree, we're slowly headed in the right direction, and it'll take time to see some real results, both in the club system and for the national team. What's good is that there's change happening at the grassroots level. The big thing is the political mess at the top, and how fans can influence real change there. A real national club system (whether fully independent or with some cross-border involvement) depends on having an association that can be trusted to administer it. Something we don't have right now. Is the CSA a government body or is it an independent body with government support? Who the CSA is accountable to (in other words, who pays their bills) is key to exerting the right pressure to get things in order.
I agree with you about the short term. I'm not even necessarily convinced we should be abandoning cross-border leagues (for the higher levels, anyway) in the long term. If both us and the Americans were starting from nothing I wouldn't necessarily advocate joining them. Given that we already have joint leagues, however, I don't see that the benefits of having an all Canadian league would outweigh the costs of setting it up. What do you see the benefits to be? Unfortunately for advocates of a national Canadian league it is not just a mental block. At the moment it is a $100 million block (my rough estimate of the value of TFC, the Whitecaps, and the Impact) and rising.
The main point, is that cross-border leagues are not really international leagues, they are American leagues that a few Canadian clubs play in. They are run by Americans in the interest of American soccer. They're not really concerned with what is good for Canadian soccer (nor should they be). The second benefit is that, well, for once it'd be nice to see Canada standing on its own two feet on something rather than continuing to be a parasite on the US for everything. As for the costs of ramping things up, I have a whole other set of thoughts on that issue, but no time to write about it right now. I'll try to post something over the next couple of days.
It's teh internets, shit happens. It would however be a lot easier if we had a billionaire on our side. As much as I would like to see an all Canadian league, I don't really mind the top two tiers being cross-border. We just need to make sure we have a Canadian solution to developing players to that level. I could see someday that we could even have a Canadian second division split east/west, but the big three aren't coming back.* *unless somehow we have a Canadian league averaging 15,000 a game without them, and they can all find buyers for their MLS franchise rights.
While it is true they are primarily interested in advancing American soccer their actions end up similarly advancing Canadian soccer if we have teams in the leagues. Our needs and goals as soccer nations are so similar that this can't help but be the case. For example, if MLS were to start recognizing FIFA dates with the goal of helping the USNT, it would also help the CNT even though that wasn't their intent. I can't see very many cases where this sort of logic doesn't apply. I understand your feelings but would offer two points in return. First, I don't think the sports relationship is really as one sided as that. In football both countries have their own leagues. In both baseball and basketball there is only one Canadian pro team. It's not so much that Canada is trying to mooch off the US to develop the sport as it is that entrepreneurs saw an opportunity to provide a form of entertainment in a single Canadian market. (i.e. there isn't a big push to develop Canadian baseball or basketball) In hockey, despite the imbalance in the number of teams, I think it is clear who is supporting whom. Second, specific to soccer, both sides derive benefit from the arrangement, not just Canada. Canada gets to shortcut soccer development and do things we wouldn't be able to do as quickly (or perhaps at all) on our own. The US benefits from strong franchises. It is the TFC model that is being adapted by all new MLS expansion teams, not the Chivas model or the Salt Lake model. In USL1, Vancouver and Montreal have been sheet anchors in a tumultuous league. And it was the merger with CSL teams that kept the old A-League in business back in 1993 when it looked like professional soccer was about to die on both sides of the border. So without meaning to imply the US couldn't do it alone, it is clear that the US benefits from its relationship with Canada.
Polygong: You do realize that Toronto FC, Vancouver, and Montreal would never leave MLS to play in a Canadian League right? And what are the chances of a Canadian League succeeding without the three biggest markets. NIL Totally agree Kingston but TFC making $8m a year with an initial investment of $10m is probably worth $80m on it's own.
As I said a few days ago, I have a few thoughts about how I believe Canadian club football can grow domestic leagues and competitions. The prevailing thought is to follow the league-and-franchises model, i.e. a league is started fresh with several franchises created. The problem with this is the capital involved is immense and comes with a high amount of risk, rendering it impractical. My thinking though is that Canada should follow the association-and-clubs model that is more commonly used in the world of football. It's really less about what we create than it is how we manage and grow what we already have. Instead of independent leagues forming, our national association (currently the CSA, which needs massive overhaul, hence making this step one) adminsters all national competitions. All clubs, professional or ametuer, independent or as a franchise of a cross-border league, take part as members of the association. Rather than a single body trying to put together clubs for a specific league, people or groups interested in starting a club can do so as they wish to whatever level they wish. If someone with alot of money wants to start a professional club for their area, then they can do so (at their own risk), if a bunch of guys want to throw together a club for low level play, they can do that too, and anywhere in between. The association creates a tiered group of competitions for Canadian clubs to play in. The top tier can be nationwide and as it goes down the ladder having more divisions covering smaller geographical areas. The Association designates the tier for each club, perhaps based mainly on what percetage of players are professionals and how big the player payroll is. Lower level clubs can work their way up by growing their revenue base over time. This designation is independent of the USSF designation of the US-based league that some teams play in. It should be recognised that the higher levels clubs have their main competition in a cross-border league so the national competition they play in (which would likely be limited to the top tier) is a secondary competition and scheduled accordingly (this already exists as the NCC).
If I understand correctly, what you are proposing is that we continue to create teams in different leagues as best fits the circumstances of the city and owner. A revitalized CSA will then assign each team to a level and run an NCC-type event for each level. We are seeing a very limited version of this in practice with the actual NCC and the Victoria Challenge Cup. While I think it is a neat idea, my questions are: 1. Who will pay for the lower level events? (Expanding the VCC to include the western PDL teams, for example, would be quite expensive relative to the budgets of those teams.) 2. How will this series of one-off tournaments help in the eventual development of a Canadian league? (Or do you see it as a permanent alternative to a Canadian league?)
the key is " billionaire"...the USA had the same boost, very wealthy owners...people who love the game with very deep pockets and are willing to accept enormous losses for years until the game overcomes media neglect/apathy...there is no such person around here to do that for us...
logical, but who is going to do this? where do you expect the leadship to come from? the CSA will fight this as a threat to it's authority...
So we would have the MSL and USSF D2 teams in the top tier and a revamped CSA running a number of leagues below that? I'm not sure that's feasible unless the CSA comes into some major funding to compliment it's restructuring.
good luck with that...I've been on the inside it's seriously ****** I think you've a better chance of getting the Canadian Constitution changed...
you're right of course but I've become too pessimistic/disillusioned to expect any change...I like your plan, so enlist key politcal(football) allies and carry on the battle, it'll be be a long one...
Indeed it will. I know it's easy for me to come to and demand change, but have no idea where to start. Dunno if it starts with a "Grassroots" kind of change or trying political influence from the top. Or just blind luck that the right sort of people come in at the right time.
my experience is the grassroots are generally idiots that don't like being told what to do they'll fight anyone who tells them they are wrong and need to change...people don't like change particularily the soccer moms and dads who are involved only as long as their children are... Change needs to come from the top, people who know what needs to be done, problem with that however it's the grassroots who put them in postitions of power, so it becomes a catch 22 situation...
A truely wild thought hit me as I was watching the Winter Olympics and then read this: http://www.uslsoccer.com/home/405195.html What if the Canadian Olympic Organization took over the CSA as to say there would still be a CSA but it would be run, organized, and developed by the COO. Basically the CSA would become a 'dummy corporation" which it basically is now anyhow. I know this wouldn't make FIFA happy and I'm sure CONCACAF would have something to say about it as well but this could be a way to make sure that things get done by people who can get things done. What better way to change things at the top by people who are already at the top. Also, is there a point where a 'vote of no confidence' by the provincial associations could be enacted upon the sitting members of CSA?
and how are you going to get the CSA to roll over and play dead and let the COO take charge?...and what does the COO know about our game? and the provincial associations is where many of the problems begin, each province thinks it knows more than the next, the entire system is over democratized and dysfunctional...from my experience within there are people in positions of power and influence who have not a clue, people who have literally never kicked a ball are in position to make technical decisions on development... once you've seen the system from the inside it's disheartening to see how bad it is...I'd like to see the entire CSA torn down and rebuilt but I have no idea that can be accomplished...