This is true. I don't want to say the UEFA Cup is a losers cup however, its basically (in Italy anyway) a 5th, 6th, 7th & sometimes (depending on the finishes of other teams) even an 8th place cup. The Cup Winners Cup was actually more prestigious but because it was the Cup of the federation cup winners, it was considered less competitive and thus, was eliminated.
I beg to differ. I think there's only realistically 4 clubs in Italy that wouldn't take this competition seriously. There's also around 4 clubs in England and La Liga as well. A team like Fiorentina, Lazio or Udinese would try to win the cup with all of its resources if it qualified. Now someone like Juventus, not so much.
Well, I guess we'll see as we will qualify for the UEFA Cup this season. I follow Fiorentina pretty closely, though, and trust me... Next season qualifying for the CL will be MUCH more important to us than winning the UEFA Cup. Not even close.
Its not that they don't take it seriously because they would. However, in Italy the top 4 teams make the Champions League every year and that is what everyone really plays for. Up until recently they had the Cup Winners Cup which the last one won by Lazio was in 1999. Since 2000 the clubs beyond 5th place on down, have really been perenially in the Serie B or even in many cases C. If your look at the standings, the current clubs have been up & down between the Serie A to the Serie B and C. Look at all the teams who are below the top 3 currently. Only Parma & Milan have not been in the Serie B in the last maybe 17-25 years. All the rest have been up and down within the last 5 years. You had Chievo a newcomer in 2001 , Cagliari, Palermo & Fiorentina in 2004. Fiorentina went down once in the early 90's with Batistuta and again in 2002 to the C2 and then went right back up. You can't aspire to play for an Uefa Cup from the Serie B or C becuase all they care about is getting to the Serie A. Milan,Roma, Inter, and Lazio & everyone else really have big club ambitions and want to be in the Champions League. If anything for most of the bigger clubs not making the CL is considered a failure. When Juventus comes back up to the Serie A next year, I seriously doubt they will play for the UEFA Cup. After living and working in Florence and having done work for Fiorentina, I can honestly say that no one in that club really cares about the UEFA CUP as much as the Champions and usually that is what they play for. These are the current Serie A placements Just look at the clubs who are new to the Serie A. 1 Inter 2 Roma 3 Lazio 4 Palermo 5 Empoli 6 Milan 7 Fiorentina 8 Sampdoria 9 Udinese 10 Atalanta 11 Livorno 12 Torino 13 Catania 14 Siena 15 Cagliari 16 Chievo 17 Reggina 18 Messina 19 Parma 20 Ascoli
You folks seem pretty dense. Regardless of how many goals are scored, the success abroad, the quality of players, if I don't enjoy the style of play then I don't enjoy it. Many people happen to feel the same way. To me, Serie A is a completely different -and less entertaining game than EPL and LaLiga. And to the "original point," the MLS can be just as entertaining. And I have seen Serie A games, but I'm not going to watch something that I find mind-numbing 5 times a week just so I can say that I've seen a lot of it. I watch a game every few weeks to remind myself why I don't like it. So, Nick, I'm not talking out of anything... I'm typing on a keyboard. Let Serie A score all the goals it wants from whatever means it wants... I think it's boring. On the corruption issue, no one has ever said that MLS has less corruption, but I have said that I don't give a damn if it helps establish the league. I'm not even getting into the UEFA Cup tangent you have gotten onto... How seriously teams take it is going to change based on what other competition they are in, etc. I do think it's more of a serious thing for a smaller league team that dominates its own league and has depth relative to its league to field half-different teams in the cup vs. league matches. Ok, I got into a bit, but that's it... You folks just seem to want to quantify things to much in a thread that has mostly been about how MLS fans react to Serie A football on an entertainment level, which has absolutely nothing to do with UEFA competitions (completely different game than Serie A), success against other leagues, etc. It's simply an entertainment thing and plenty around the world share my opinion that it is a relatively boring game to watch.
I saw today's Serie A matches this morning and this afternoon's MLS opener with Colorado & DC. Reggina - Inter although it ended 0-0 was pretty exciting as was Milan-Empoli. Ronaldo had a beautiful dribble and goal showing when he is on his game and in shape, he is still the world's best. As far as the MLS match. I thought it looked to be pretty exciting. The cold weather may have contributed to speed up the game which is also a very big factor especially when you compare a fall to spring league as opposed to a spring and summer one. When the Latin players on DC United get cohesion going, they will be tough to beat. The Rapids new stadium also looked great. My compliments!
Sadly, I was painting all day. No soccer for me. I plan on being at DC's home opener next weekend though. Hopefully the Brazillian invasion continues the entertaining soccer at RFK.
Well then... Without quantifying it, tell me what you mean. What matches have you seen and what was boring about them and in what ways is MLS play similar?
If you read the previous pages of this thread, I have said it many times, but I'll sum it up again to save you the effort: To qualify, I have watched a handful of Inter games this season, watched a handful of AC Milan games, watched the last Milan derby, and maybe two Roma games... And I know I've seen Lazio play twice. I don't remember what specific opponents there were for the various Milan (AC and otherwise) I have also watched the streaming of about a match and a half of Juventus from Serie B online. Certainly not an expert, but I've seen enough to get a sense of the game. My major complaints: -The league doesn't feature the five-star athleticism or skill of the other two major leagues I have discussed (athleticism for EPL and skill for LaLiga). Maybe it is 4.5 stars in both, but it doesn't ever really strike me as top of the line. -The league has almost no broad exposure to this side of the world. I know nobody outside of Roma, Inter, AC Milan, and Juve, with the exception of Toni and a Behrami(sp?) And I frequent soccernet, this board, watch a handful of games per week, play the video games, watch highlight clips of games I can't find... And Nothing about Serie A is ever pushed out at my like the EPL, LaLiga, MLS is. MLS obviously is domestic, and EPL is common language. There is no reason that Serie A couldn't have the same saturation and projection as LaLiga though. On top of that, no one ever jumps out at me from the lower half teams. This is specifically different from the other leagues mentioned, which each have dynamic or athletic (or both) players up and down the table. In a previous post I referenced Tevez, Martins, and Zigic as examples of dynamic, worth-the-price-of-admission on less than stellar teams in other leagues. Obviously there are plenty more in those leagues (and Zigic is an odd choice I know!) -The games just often don't have the pace and flow I like. -The games are often rife with diving, drama, red cards, violence, poor atmosphere, etc. I know that diving is everywhere, but I just get the feeling that in Serie A games, you dive, you get your yellow card and jog down the field. I find that pretty much offensive that diving has just sorta become a "professional foul" in that league. That's my interpretation at least. If you are going to be a diver like Drogba or C. Ronaldo, then at least have their dynamic playmaking abilities and score 20 goals. -This season has been poor, it's been a boring, predictable season that was over in November. Next year I will give Serie A another chance and will certainly tune in slightly more often for the added Juventus games. I have nothing against Serie A, it's a fine league for the people who love it and has a rich, deep history with great players. It's just that when I turn a Serie A match on in my house, within 10 minutes no one is paying attention and we're talking about something else. This doesn't happen when a game from the other leagues is on, at least not on the average. I would love someone to point out what I'm missing, I'm always open to seeing more entertaining soccer. About the MLS, I've qualified this along the way. I think watching DC United (who I attended somewhat regularly last year and plan to this year) is more entertaining than watching a Serie A match. I didn't say that the MLS in general was better. I did say that the MLS should not aspire to have the same entertainment value as Serie A, there are at least two leagues which are better to model themself off on an entertainment/style level. Again, nothing against people who like Serie A, as I hope none of you have anything against me for finding it dull. I just don't see whatever it is that others see. Maybe if I was Italian, or knew who anyone was outside the big four, but at this point, it's just not fun.
Last year I hadn't subscribed to the Rai International. I only watched the Serie A matches shown on FSC. Now I have the RAI & not FSC. As someone mentioned before, FSC shows pretty much the worst matches while the RAI carry's the major game or games of the week. I myself will no longer watch the games on FSC. Like I said those teams in the bottom half are all new to the Serie A , have small stadia and IMHO ruin it for the rest, IE Catania and their riots this year. As a fan, I also agree that its really hard to get into Palermo vs. Atalanta, Ascoli vs. Messina or Reggina vs Uninese. I never watched those games while I was in Italy and I also agree those games are boring. Again in comparison the MLS has no promotion or relegation. Its been said time and again that promo/rel will not work in the USA. However, if your "big" MLS clubs like DC, LA, Houston all of a sudden found themselves playing in the USL for consecutive years and/or dropping even to the PDL (like Messina & Fiorentina did) & then up & down for say 5 years, how could non die hard but maybe casual soccer fans get into it? I'm almost sure the product will suffer by this. The MLS is different as worst can go to first or play poorly all season (LA in 05) and win it all which is somthing that very seldom happens in Europe. Real Salt Lake, Chivas USA and I'm sure Toronto in any other league will have been or will be relegated anywhere else. Therefore, comparing these two leagues Serie A to the MLS is like comparing apples and oranges. The Serie A has suffered a great deal this year there is no question about that. The loss of Juventus with 7 World Cup players hasn't helped the Serie A. I would love to see however, what would happen to the MLS if DC, LA & anyone else were to get relegated. I'm sure it would spell the death of the MLS.
Let's see if this match is as exciting as a Serie A or an MLS match! Probable lineups: Manchester United -- 1-Edwin Van der Sar; 6-Wes Brown, 5-Rio Ferdinand, 22-John O'Shea, 4-Gabriel Heinze; 7-Cristiano Ronaldo, 16-Michael Carrick, 24-Darren Fletcher, 11-Ryan Giggs; 8-Wayne Rooney, 9-Louis Saha AS Roma -- 32-Doni; 77-Marco Cassetti, 5-Philippe Mexes, 13-Cristian Chivu, 2-Christian Panucci; 16-Daniele De Rossi, 7-David Pizarro; 4-Christian Wilhelmsson, 11-Rodrigo Taddei, 30-Mancini; 10-Francesco Totti. Referee: Lubos Michel (Slovakia)
This doesn't have really anything to do with MLS or Serie A but maybe with soccer in America in general. As I was driving to work this morning, I remembered going to matches in the NASL, WSA/APSL, as well as World Cup Soccer and the MLS. There was always some village American soccer fan that would stand up put his hands up and say 3 points every time the ball went over the bar. That would always get me riled up. hehe!
There is no doubt that EPL and LaLiga are both marketed much better than Serie A but that doesn't mean that the football is better. English and Spanish are both global languages... Italian, not so much. The English stadiums and crowds are better mostly because the average Italian does not consider a football match as a proper place to take a family. 35,000 people chanting 'Fiorentina Vaffanculo' over and over and problems with violence. If Rossi, Rosina and Suazo (all playing in the bottom of Serie A) don't jump out at you then you need to watch them some more. Do you like the flow in the Spanish game or the English game? I don't really see the two as similar at all, in that regard. In my opinion Totti is Serie A's most dramatic diver and he's pretty dynamic. In Serie A if you don't go down it will not be called a foul. Watch a Serie A corner kick and everyone, on both sides, is being fouled. Empoli, a city of 45,000, is 3 points from 4th with a game in hand on Palermo. That's not predictable.
Considering their strong league and for all the years Mexico has dominated this region, Mexico has never had the distinction of being represented in Italy. Concacaf and/or American soccer players, and as much as the MLS has tried to go after Mexican players, never has an MFL player ever played in the Serie A. Suazo coming from Honduras has been in Italy for a while. I remember Inter wanting to sign Hugo Sanchez around 1990 but then he was injured or Real Madrid didn't want to let him go. Raffa Marquez was supposed to have been signed by Roma but then he signed with Barca and became a star. I've always wondered why there weren't more from Mexico & Central American or even American stars making the trek to Italy. I still can't believe how Alexi Lalas made it over there. Supposedly, Enzo Ferrari is with Sampdoria as is Giuseppe Rossi but he learned his soccer at Parma . Camoranesi played in Mexico before going to Italy. He then became an Italian National team star and won the World Cup. He was from Argentina, however.
Thing with Serie A is that the mentality some teams have make it seem as if it's in slower pace, demands less athleticism and so on. But that is far from true. I dare any of you to dribble past 4 players well-positioned where they should be and you'll see how hard it is. That is why for instance Ronaldo was called il fenomeno back at Inter. This guy could tear tactics apart and if somebody does that to an "italian" team then they're extremlly GOOD! In Serie A you won't have much space to work on, though you will have more time with the ball then in EPL. In EPL it's the contrary I think. You will have a fair amount of space but little time with the ball. So you have to be quick in whatever you do. And to succeed in these leagues takes different kind of skills. To break up an italian defence you must have great vision or be abnormally great at dribbling and so on. Provided it's a deffensive oriented team. Roma for instance are offensive, thus don't qualify in this category. Which league is the best is hard to discuss and measure but I know that Serie As quality has gone down this year but it will be back. Impossible that Serie A won't challenge elite of the elites. It's just the mentality and the nature of Serie A.
So much for that whole Forza Roma thing... and that "When Roma knocks out the best team in England..." thing too...
At least they won in Rome! Didn't watch it thank heavens! I wonder how many goals they would have scored against DC United? Maybe not that many against my old Quakes in Houston! When the Ancient Romans invaded Germany, they knew they could never contend or over power these big Germanic tribes. The Germans were much taller, stronger and much more powerful than the 5ft 6 inch Romans. Then becuase they were smarter than the Germans, they cut off their water supply and after 3 days attacked & beat them in battle. Maybe Roma should have cut off Manchester's water?
Very good response from Nick, I would respond: The marketing of the league DOES tie into the overall entertainment value for me. The fact that I'm not familiar with the players and teams hinders how entertaining it is for me. I've always been a person who couldn't watch sports just for the team or the mechanics of the game. I need to know who I am watching and they need to be good. In my family, my father could pull up to any random high school football game with kids who he has never seen and just sit and watch the game and enjoy it... I can't do that, not with any sport. I need to know something about what I am seeing. Ironically, I was familiar with the players and names and such from the video games for several years when I was a kid before I could get into watching the games on TV. Overall, Serie A and its broadcast partners could do a lot better in projecting to me what exactly I am going to be seeing. Even something as tacky as DROGBA and CHELSEA take on HENRY and ARSENAL would help people like me who are not familiar with it. If I heard Rossi was going to be on TV, I might tune in, but as of right now I depend on being tipped off by a Soccer by Ives blog that maybe something entertaining will be happening in Italy. And you are right, the flow is different in Spain vs. England, but as I also noted in my post, I think each feature 5 star quality in one of the major aspects of the game. I most enjoy the flow of an England game (mainly Arsenal)... but there isn't a whole lot of difference in watching a domestic Arsenal game and a Barca game. Outside of those teams however, I prefer the EPL style. But the general world class skill in LaLiga is hard to ignore. That skill just doesn't pop out at me in Italian games. I also love the prospects and young players, etc. LaLiga has been good this year with Messi and Gago, Higuain, Marcelo (briefly), Fernandez, etc. I know, I know, all teams have prospects, but once again, those are ones I know well. I like Totti, I was actually thinking of Inzaghi when I typed. Totti dives, but yes, he is a class player and very dynamic. I just get this feeling in Serie A that there really isn't even a disgust with the diving anymore, people just do it, get their card or nothing, and jog back down field. At least in England, if you dive, your own fans will boo you (say, Drogba). Hell, they might boo them in Italy too, but again, I don't know. And in the market of entertainment and product, it's never the consumer's job to sell the product to himself.
Would also quickly add that it is likely we shall see 3 EPL teams and either one Serie A or Bundesliga in the final four of the champions league. Good year for the EPL, I must say.
The impression I'm getting is most outsiders (meaing people of origin outside of Italy or who have lived in Italy) don't know enough about Serie A to actually post anything postive/negative about it. The quality of play is excellent right now see all the video links that Serie A fans have posted on this thread. You will see there is world class talent, which is vastly better than MLS. People don't want to take notice because Nike as not made Serie A hip (Barca/Ronadinho Arsenal/Henry ManU Rooney etc..).
Mookhead: As has been said ... 1000 times, this thread has not at all about quality of players, but quality of entertainment... You become the nth person to make that mistake in their first post here. Also, as I have learned in my own transition into regular soccer watching... Anyone can make a highlight clip of any league and make it look brilliant. Just the same, you can make a blooper real and make even the best look terrible. The truth is, in a soccer game, counting maybe 3-6 total goals with at most 30 seconds of directly related footage, perhaps two to three times as many exciting oppurtunities, and a handful of entertaining tricks, flair-ish plays, etc... you're still looking at most at maybe 10 minutes of notable watching in a two hour broadcast. The strength in actually watching a league as opposed to watching a highlight clip is the other hour and fifty minutes. Can that space keep your interest connected between those specific events. My experience WATCHING Serie A games has been a chore in being connected from one of those points to the next, far more than it is in the EPL and LaLiga, and sometimes more so than the MLS. I don't know a ton about Serie A, but I watch the games and become bored, which qualifies me to judge its entertainment value for me. Knowing more about the league (which I am slowly accomplishing, it isn't easy living in America) will expand how much I enjoy it, but will not change my qualifications in making entertainment value judgements for how I interpret it. EDIT: There is something to the comment of hip-ness, but that is not my fault. It is not just their shoe deals and what have you that make those players so popular, and it is just as much a circular thing. The relations are mutual. Rooney playing for Man U makes him big, him being on video games, wearing shoes, etc makes him bigger, him playing on Man U makes ManU bigger, ManU being bigger makes him bigger, etc. It's circular. This is how it works with any superstar on a team that is big enough to be bigger than the superstar (such as... Jeter and the Yankees.) Here, "Italia" is a bigger brand than any team in Serie A, while Ronaldinho and Barca are far bigger brands than either Brasil or Spain. I regularly see the blue Italia apparel here in America, even before they won the World Cup last summer, but I can't honestly remember seeing a single Serie A jersey in the last six months. I've seen plenty of Barca, Arsenal, Chelsea, ManU, Liverpool, Real Madrid, France, England, USA, DC United, etc. Nothing from Serie A even remotely has that kind of branding here, though. Again, not my fault. To make a comparisson... AC Milan and Barcelona both are huge clubs, rich histories, great players past and present, european and domestic success, both are arguably second fiddle historically to a slightly bigger domestic club, both feature a playmaker from Brazil who is arguably one of the five best players in the world... Yet one is a global brand here and the other is not. Is that all because of Nike? Some of it sure, but part of it is that Kaka simply isn't as interesting and Milan simply isn't as entertaining. Neither of them speak our language, nor play in a league that speaks our language. They both have hundreds of millions of dollars invested in growing their brands, etc. All of this gets around to one of my points, there is just more of a feeling of entertainment for an American fan (this is an american board and with an original MLS perspective) tied to a team like Barca or Arsenal or any of the big EPL or LaLiga teams that there simply isnt for a Serie A team. Be it personality, flair, branding, culture, "more than a club," and all that... Serie A is just years behind in all of that.