News: Seleção General Discussion 2023 [R]

Discussion in 'Brazil' started by Ombak, Jan 20, 2023.

  1. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Vini confirmed out against Argentina:

    https://ge.globo.com/futebol/seleca...classico-brasil-x-argentina-no-maracana.ghtml

    Such a good start, although Brazil was already on the backfoot before Vini came off, only to now be out of the biggest home match in a while.

    Personally, I'd take out Raphinha too and replace them with Endrick (or Gabriel Jesus if that's the plan) and a midfielder, making it a midfield of André, Douglas Luiz and Bruno Guimarães.
     
    Estuardo A. Lopez repped this.
  2. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    Am I the only one bothered that this is clearly a team made for player sales?

    Ever since we've been bowing to European football and it's tactics we've been a B tier team. Brazil has always been the best when taking players from the National League. Our reserve team and at least 3-4 starters were always from the Brazilian league. There's a reason for that, the play style of football in South America is different than Europe. Every time I see a counter attack where the wingers run to the wings for "spacing" I puke in my mouth a little bit, and this is now becoming common.

    If I told you:

    Team A has 250 million dollar payroll
    Team B has a 25 million dollar payroll

    Team A struggles to beat team B and they can only do it once team B starters are tired and have no depth on the bench. Does that mean:

    Team A is better tactically and better coached?
    Or
    Team B is better tactically and better coached?

    if your answer is B... B is always the non European teams playing European powerhouses. However, we keep getting this "Europeans are better at tactics" bull... if they were better they wouldn't need 10x the salary of the HIGHEST Latin American team's payroll to barely beat them.

    That's why when you try to mix something that Diniz is doing with one of the lowest payrolls in the Brazilian National league, with a players that "grew up" in European style football, it ends up looking like this:

     
  3. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Can you point out which years Brazil were the best when taking players from the Domestic League ?
     
  4. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    #429 Guigs, Nov 17, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2023
    Up until 2002 Brazil always had over 50% of their WC squads made up of the national league.

    It's like people have only paid attention to football since Oil money come into the European leagues... If you just look at the population of Brazil as a nation, it makes perfect sense that we have that much more talent than any other nation in the world. Yes our league is still amazing, and an all-star team from our league would compete for a world cup.

    GK - Perri
    LB - Arana
    CB - Nino
    CB - Halter
    RB - Mayke
    DM - Allan
    DM - Andre
    CM - Veiga
    CM - Gerson / Eduardo / Lima (too many options)
    FW - Paulinho
    FW - Vitor Roque (injured) / Marcos Leonardo (too many options)

    This team can win the World Cup.. that's not even including players that went to fringe Russian/Saudi teams. Imagine you can include Khellven, Claudinho, Scarpa and so many more. We don't need to see a team that's clearly made for name recognition in Europe.
     
  5. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    In 2002, the starting lineup had 3 players that were still playing in Brazil. And one of them was the GK. The others were Gilberto Silva and Kleberson.

    In 1998, the starting lineup again had 3 players. Again one of them was the goalie. And Bebeto had already played in Europe and won the WC in 94. The other one was Junior Baiano.

    In 1994 it was 3 again. If you consider Mazinho took the starting spot from Rai.

    The main influencers in those teams all played in Europe. Hardly any of those players were arguably big difference makers. Between 70 and 94, with more domestic players, we didn't win single a WC. We didn't even make it to a final.

    Now, could it just be that the problem of not using domestic players is that starting in the 90s, more and more of quality and potential quality Brazilian players started going abroad in higher numbers and earlier in their career ? And the average player that's typically left in Brazil today is just not that good ? You really think using players from Brazilian league would somehow "transport us to our roots" ?
     
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  6. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    that's exactly what I said, half of the team was from the national league with 2-4 players starting. Thanks for looking at it and showing everyone that's exactly what I said.

    You understand how having only your BEST players in Europe join your BEST players (mostly in the national league) makes it a lot easier for the European players (that mostly joined an european side after they turned at least 23) to play South American style football right?
     
  7. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    On this topic.
    Players leaving early is not a good thing, that should automatically disqualify them as a National team player. That means they are missing their best development years 19-23 in a system that doesn't explore their talent, hindering their development.

    Brazil has such a massive population, that the average player in Brazil is heads and shoulder above most European sides. Spain has a population of 47 million, Brazil has 215 million. If we pick the best Spaniard players to make up 57% of their league, that means about 14 players in each team are Spaniard. The average Brasileirao Serie A player is better than the average 14 Spaniard players in La Liga simply because you get to pick players from a pool of about 9,400,000 Males in Spain at a soccer player age, vs 43,000,000 in Brazil.

    Then you're talking about transporting, there's no transporting things back. Things are like they've always been. We have massive talent in our home league due to our population, and the way we play in the league has more pressure than anything they'll ever do in Europe.
     
  8. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I missed the reserve team and 3-4 player part. But are you arguing that players on the bench and players like Gilberto Silva, Junior Baiano, Zinho, Mazinho actually had an impact on the playing style ? Let's not ignore the fact that the 94 wasn't considered a "Brazilian" team.
     
  9. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    1 - Those teams still had 50% domestic players on the roster because the exodus of talent was smaller than it has been since the late 90s and 2000s. What is left today in terms of talent is less than it was back then.

    2 - I truly doubt that team has any chance at winning a WC.
     
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  10. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    1994 was because we played with a defensive squad. It has nothing to do with anything other than that.

    Yes all players called up make an impact. Famously the 2002 team never beat the reserve team. It got so bad that Felipao put Ronaldo to play with the reserves, and again, the reserves won again. Outside of Ronaldo and maybe Roberto Carlos there wasn't 1 player in 2002 that we would miss if they got hurt. And if Romario was on the team, it would only be outside of Roberto Carlos. We fall in love with those names in 2002, but look at the bench, it's as deep as the starting lineup.
     
  11. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    The exodus is at a young age. Too young for us to see if they are any good.

    2 - Croatia made it to a final and a semifinal with a team that's not even close in talent than the one I listed. What's the weakness on that team?
     
  12. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    You rate some of those bench players higher than I do. Roberto Carlos is actually one of the players where I don't think we would miss because Junior was pretty good. Edilson, Denilson, Luizão were a big ... and I mean very big step below Rivaldo, Ronaldo and Ronaldinho. I mean, in the qualifiers without R9 we struggled immensely when he was out injured. Luizão doesn't even come close to him. Denilson was overrated because his end product was never there. Edilson had great skills, but wasn't the brightest in decision making either.

    But we are just really gonna differ on this.
     
  13. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    Defenders were all interchangeable. Ronaldinho made his name at the WC, Edilson played for him twice and it was fine, no difference.

    Struggled because they did not want to call up Romario. If Romario had played 4 WCs, he could have easily won 3. Never forget 1998 and 2002!
     
  14. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    You're saying the team you listed has a player like Modric ? Even Rakitic was a very good player. Mandzukich is better than any of those strikers. Vitor Roque hasn't fully developed yet. Plus they had a fairly solid defense. Having said all of that, they got major breaks in the draw in 2018 (Russia, Denmark, and blah England) and most of their games went to PK shootouts which they amazingly won all of them. So I wouldn't even say that's a great comparison.

    The weakness on that team ? Nobody is that impressive. I see zero standout players. Gerson for example, I don't rate him at all. When he played for the NT he sucked big time. Arana is probably the only player I rate a bit higher. The center backs I don't watch them so not sure how good they are. But center backs hasn't typically been our problem unless we have injury issues.
     
  15. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I will agree with one thing. Many of the players yesterday weren't that above if at all what we have in the Brasileirão today. Raphinha, Lodi, Gabriel (defender), Emerson Royal are all pretty average players.
     
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  16. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I tend to agree with celito here. I will say, however, that the sheer number of players that move at a young age is problematic. Having strong competition among players matters, and removing all of those potentially good players hurts that.

    But potential stars, like Vini, Rodrygo and Endrick, are going to leavea at 18, and that's ok. What they need is good advice, to go to the right places.

    One example that supports your argument though, from the match yesterday, is João Pedro. Most of his touches were a waste, even when he connected. One time, he was near the top of the box and passed, first-time, to someone on the right flank (Raphinha or Emerson, I can't remember), and that looks good statistically because it was a completed pass and the play continued, but it took forever for the ball to get there, nothing came of it and it would have been much better to combine with someone closer to him.

    Endrick would likely have made very different choices than him in that situation and most others that João Pedro was in.
     
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  17. MerlinRM

    MerlinRM Member+

    May 5, 2014
    NorthEast USA
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I don't mind the squad consisting of all players who are in Europe. A good manager with good tactics can make it work. As much as I dislike Tite's ending, he did a fantastic job of building a solid XI for the most part and they were all in Europe.

    Do I think some youth need to make better decisions? Sure of course. There are plenty of players who I thought would do well, go to Europe a bit too earlier, fizzle out and then come back.
     
  18. Al Gabiru

    Al Gabiru Member

    Jan 28, 2020
    #443 Al Gabiru, Nov 18, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2023
    I agree that it is a team created to sell players, but not for the reasons that Guigs pointed out.

    I think there are strange call-ups, like players who were called up and a few weeks later sold and disappeared (like defender Arthur from América-MG) or players who started in the last call-up and weren't even on the list of 23 in the next one (Yan Couto). I have no doubt that were agents's call-ups.

    But not all call-ups are made by agents, just isolated cases.

    It's obvious that the best players are in Europe. But when you call up a young player, who isn't at a big club in Europe, nor is he on the transfer market's radar, put him in the starting lineup and don't give him a sequence of games, it's suspicious, to say the least.
     
  19. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    You mentioned the 2 names you recognize and then said word salad about solid defense. Meaning you have no clue how to rate those players.

    Now if you have been watching Brasileirao you could rate the NT I mentioned. Just sound like you haven't. Halter and Nino can both play Center Mid as well as Defenders. Something that can't be said about Gabriel, Lodi and Royal. So not sure how you would rate these 3 higher, unless you're rating based on name recognition.

    GK - There are probably 10 GKs in the Brazilian league that can start for the NT no need to rate here as every single one of them from Bento to Leo Jardin can be the NT GK.
    WB - Arana has been the best call up at this position for Diniz, didn't get a call back cause we need to market players
    CB - Halter / Nino discussed up there, but I would still keep Marquinhos as a starter for a true NT. Need to have experience, and he's really really good
    WB - I would go with Khellven, as our DMs are so good right now we can use players like him or Yan Couto and Mayke which are very offensive.
    DM - Andre is him and Allan is a hound that can pass as well as he defends. Both can easily cover ground for our attacking wings and midfielders
    CM - Veiga - Better passer than Guimaraes and he can protect the ball better than Guimaraes, you will have to foul him in order to take the ball away from him. between Veiga Guimaraes and Scarpa the team is well served.
    AM - the position that doesn't exist in Europe.... Claudinho would be a perfect fit here, I would let him and Rodrygo fight for this position.
    FW - Paulinho discussed at the bottom
    FW - This is also another hard one. I would start with a veteran because the team is too young, in the transition I would bring honestly Tiquinho for his current form. He's putting away something like 90% of his chances, which is crazy! That would allow time to develop any of the younger ones like Arthur, Roque and Marcos Leonardo.


    Andre literally had to cover for the bad defenders on the current national team. Lodi, Royal and Gabriel were saved by Andre multiple times, and because he was covering for them he couldn't stay on the midfield. He was the only one that got back after an embarrassing foot race, where if it wasn't for him getting back and stopping the shot, it likely would have been another score. Then he was the one that intercepted the cutting player for a 1 time shot when royal got embarrassed and marquinhos had to go out to cover. He was also the one that stopped the attack to start the counter where Joao Pedro showed he should never wear a NT jersey again.

    Andre is arguably the best center midfielder we have between all of our current brazilian national players. Maybe Andrey Santos (if he's not ruined by European positional style) will get there as he has the tools. He just can't be brainwashed into positional soccer, hiding his talent.

    Paulinho is heads and shoulders above Joao Pedro, Pepe, Raphinha and Martinelli. He's always been more prolific as a scorer than Vini Jr, since their time together in the Brasileirao. You put him in a position to score, he will make the right decision and score.

    Paulinho has 28 goals this year, 17 of them in the Brasileirao. Europe doesn't know how to utilize players that don't need to play in space and can play in small spaces. So they overrate wingers above floating forwards like the best we have in Brazil. Endrick and Vitor Roque will become a wingers in Europe the same as Ronaldinho Gaucho became a winger. In Brazil all of these players are closer to the box and the center of the pitch. Some can make the adjustment to the style and the lifestyle, but most can't (especially if they are sent to Germany of all places)
     
  20. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    This is exactly what I mean. No forward would ever make that pass in the Brasileirao, they would try to either get a first touch or a shield off the pass in order to get the shot off. Pay attention to the amount of times Brazil has the ball and the players make runs towards the corner flags for "spacing". That's why you see in the Brasileirao more goals from the middle, since players attack the box not only in crosses but in passing opportunities. The goal from Brazil came off a vertical attack inside the box, those are harder to create than a cross sure... but they yield better results.

    If I am going to give advice to any player that wants to go to Europe, do it like Neymar... Stay until you're a bit older and you had time to develop your game. That way you can do it all, not just hang out in the wing.
     
  21. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    How is it obvious that the best are in Europe? Players leave for salaries, and they come back because of the culture, plenty of players didn't make it abroad for personal choices. And again, we have a HUGE population, we can replace players like no other country can.

    Ya'll really don't understand what snow does to a Brazilian person. There's a reason they are always coming back to Brazil, and it isn't just to party. These are kids, taken away from their families to play football where nobody understands them and it's a different culture. Thiago Silva didn't make it his first time around. He needed to come back and regroup.
     
  22. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Regardless, I told you exactly how Croatia made it to the final and even semi final. A bunch of PK shootouts (4 out of 5 wins) and with some favorable draws. If your point is that a domestic team could win a WC like that, expecting weak draws and a streak of PK wins, then I guess that could happen. But that isn't increasing the chance of a win compared to using players in Europe.

    I've admitted that some of the players in this last call up aren't Seleção material and some domestic players are certainly comparable if not better (Emerson, Lodi, Raphinha, Joao Pedro). But IMO that hasn't been true since 2002 specifically in WCs as you seemed to imply. The better players have most always been abroad.
     
  23. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Edilson started vs Turkey in the SF. I don't remember a single thing he did that was worthy of anything. In fact I remember him messing up one or two good chances.
     
  24. Estuardo A. Lopez

    Jul 9, 2014
    Club:
    AC Milan
    I like he discussion but I think you guys are missing the point.
    In my humble opinion, the problem for Brazil has ALWAYS been the coach and not the players. Go back to history and you will conclude that the coach (Santana, Lazaroni, Parreira (2006),Scolari (2014). Tite (2018, 2022)) have caused Brazil to lose too many World Cups.
     
  25. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    And you remember Ronaldinho because of 1 game vs England, he was pretty pedestrian too, hence being subbed many times and most people forgetting he didn't play 2 games.
     

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