Seleção 2014-15: Dunga II Begins -- Post Cup, Pre Qualifiers [R]

Discussion in 'Brazil' started by Guigs, Jul 9, 2014.

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Who would be the ideal choice as new Seleção manager?

Poll closed Aug 13, 2014.
  1. Felipão

    9.1%
  2. Muricy

    6.1%
  3. Tite

    18.2%
  4. Luxemburgo

    9.1%
  5. Guardiola

    24.2%
  6. Other Foreign Manager

    21.2%
  7. Other Domestic Manager

    12.1%
  1. Kaka10725

    Kaka10725 Member+

    Jun 1, 2007
    Damiao got drop initially because of injury, this was under Scolari. Jo got called as his replacement.
     
  2. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    Klose is the definition of an avg player that gets put in the position to succeed and does so. And because of his success he gets an upgrade on his status, but watching him play you can see that he's very limited on what he can do. He's not ibrahamovic, he's not messi and he's not even somewhere in between.

    It's not hard to understand how an avg player succeeds, they are the definition of hard work pays off. He's bebeto, he's Juninho pernambucano... those are consider great Brazilian players.

    To me they are the avg players that work harder than all other players.
     
  3. MatthausSammer

    MatthausSammer Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 9, 2012
    Canada
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I don't think so. There's a reason, beyond the weakness of the German striker position, why Klose was starting for us all the way to the 2014 WC. His movement, ability to read where the play is going, and ability to combine with his teammates is outstanding. His aerial presence is also pretty good for his size. He may not wow you with his physical attributes or go on mazy dribbling runs, but I think he definitely brought more to the table than just working hard. He had uncanny footballing instincts. Someone that just hustles and doesn't really have any skills doesn't last that long, score a number of goals matched only by Gerd Müller for Germany, and have the faith of roughly five German NT managers.
     
  4. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    All of the attributes you mentioned are learned and not raw talent. Romario could skip practices and still be a more productive striker.

    See the difference between those?

    Talent wise he's avg. He takes the leap forward by working extremely hard.

    Juninho wasn't the most talented FK taker, but the amount of practice he put in made him be the most successful.
     
  5. MatthausSammer

    MatthausSammer Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 9, 2012
    Canada
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I don't think so. You could practice extremely hard, but that doesn't make you as instinctual as Klose. I guess that's the difference between you and I, you think that footballing instincts, the ability to read where you need to be at any given moment to advance the play, can be taught, I think its moreso a natural gift.
     
    benni... repped this.
  6. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    If it was a natural gift, it would imply it's not learned behavior.
     
  7. Mengão86

    Mengão86 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    Nov 16, 2005
    Maryland, RJ/ES/PE
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I saw Klose blow by a defender a few weeks ago for Lazio with PACE and score a goal. I couldn't believe my eyes....
     
  8. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    Because it's not normal for him to do that, so that surprises you.

    All I'm saying is that you get very few extremely talented players, most are avg who differ on work ethic and areas they specialize on. But when they are successful we give them more credit than their avg talent grants them.

    Or we would have more players looking like Jorge campos on goal because they are talented, can read the shots, can read crosses and have great reflexes.... but we don't, the physical aspect of a player and how he prepares for his role is more important.

    The differences outside of that are minimal, a great passer is a 90% accuracy passer while a horrible passer will be around 84%, that's not that big of a difference
     
  9. NotreDameFlamengo

    Jul 25, 2011
    Raleigh, NC
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Rio 2016

    ????
    Fabinho *David Luiz Marquinhos ??????
    *Oscar ???? Lucas Silva
    Talisca Coutinho *Neymar

    A little hard to fit in a complete lineup, but the mids above are all versatile to move around once you find that last mid or forward.

    Anyone know how Fred from Shaktar has been playing? I was thinking take out Oscar to use a Over 23 on another forward or speedy winger, but the cupboard is bare.

    I don't think Lucas qualifies for U-23.
     
  10. Kaka10725

    Kaka10725 Member+

    Jun 1, 2007
    Since Neymar is most likely going, providing Barca doesn't restrict him, I would also take Thiago Silva and maybe Luiz Gustavo as my 3 overage players . I don't think Coutinho or Oscar will qualify for the U-23, but I could be wrong.

    Right now, I would go with. It will probably change in a year's time if a new talent emerge or someone below falters.

    Fabinho - TS - Marquinhos - Wendell
    Lucas Silva - L. Gustavo
    Felipe Anderson - Rafinha - Neymar
    Talisca
     
  11. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I don't rate Klose highly anyways. And we don't play like Germany. Never did. Look at what happened when Germany had an average team in 2002 and they needed goals. He was useless after the easy group stage games.

    Of course if you have great system / dominating team basically any striker will look good in it. All you need is someone with decent instincts.
     
    greatstriker11 repped this.
  12. MatthausSammer

    MatthausSammer Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 9, 2012
    Canada
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Klose was a rookie back then, FYI. Basically playing with the NT for the first time.

    Agree to disagree.
     
  13. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    It's really not a knock on Klose, far from it! Klose to me is the distinction between avg players. One can make a career by being useful and knowing who he is, his limitations and strengths while others just fade away because they never figured out what they need to work on.

    By the way that's what also separates de great players from legends. Imagine if somebody like Romario took honing his skills more seriously than he did during his career.
     
  14. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Serious question, why didn't Klose score more goals for Bayern during his stay there ? Seems like he had a good system behind him as @Guigs would put it.
     
  15. MatthausSammer

    MatthausSammer Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 9, 2012
    Canada
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Because he was lazy and disinterested there. He packed on the weight while at Bayern, but once the 2006 WC come, he dropped the weight.
     
  16. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    He is definitely an anomaly. About 25% of his career goals are with Germany..
     
  17. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    Good team doesn't mean good system, look at ibra at barca, Diego Costa in Spain etc
     
  18. Mengão86

    Mengão86 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    Nov 16, 2005
    Maryland, RJ/ES/PE
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
  19. Kaka10725

    Kaka10725 Member+

    Jun 1, 2007
    It would of been interesting trying to play Pep style with a very limited pool of technical midfielders. He probably would have of converted a few players like he did with Lahm or actually find a few hidden gem.
     
  20. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Dani Alves in the midfield :ROFLMAO:

    @Mengão86 worst nightmare !!!
     
  21. Mengão86

    Mengão86 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    Nov 16, 2005
    Maryland, RJ/ES/PE
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    If Pep could get him to play discipline, it might work. He loses too many dumb balls. He worked under Dunga as a wide midfielder. That's about the only spot for him.
     
  22. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    [​IMG]
     
  23. Mengão86

    Mengão86 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    Nov 16, 2005
    Maryland, RJ/ES/PE
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    No, we are talking about the PAST. ;) As far as the present and future are concerned, Avenida Alves is closed.
     
    greatstriker11 repped this.
  24. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    Jamil Chade reported what we already knew, and on top of it nothing will change.

    Instead of linking this I rather have you guys look up his story on CBF.

    Just so you can see how this is not really circulating in the media even though it should be front page news.
     
  25. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Yes there is not much new here. CBF has been doing this at least since the mid 90s.

    Even though the wording is pretty bad, I am not really sure how much this entity really controls who gets called due to that player "marketing" clause.
     

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