From http://espn.go.com/sports/soccer/st...-inspires-brazil-thump-united-states-friendly Klinsmann, a German who moved to California with his American-born wife after retiring as a player in 1998, said the U.S. team has to be more assertive with officials. "You watch big teams in the world, what they do, and there's a call going against them -- Barcelona is one of them -- they come with 10 guys towards the referee," he said. "The referee is confused. He doesn't know even know who to show a yellow card." Landon Donovan said "that's not really in our character as Americans." "We try to play the game fair," Donovan said. "We don't really dive. We don't do those kind of things." Losing a lot of respect for him, very quickly. And gaining respect for Donovan...shocking! Feel free to move this to the game thread, but I thought it was worth starting a new one for this.
Players and coaches have an obligation to try to win the game. It's the referee's job to sanction bad behavior. I think JK is right that the referee was somewhat intimidated by Brazil. If the US takes action to counteract that (dissent, the hard foul on Neymar) whose fault is that? The US for trying to win by doing nasty things, or the referee by acting in such a way that the US believed (rightfully!) that they had to sort of take the law into their own hands?
This is what the Brazilians are doing - playing the ref, and you're angry at Klinnsman? Klinnsman is stating the obvious here - either the ref is not going to go along with the Brazilians or Americans need to play the same game.
You bet I am. A lack of class is a lack of class, no matter what your justification is. It disgusts me when I see Barcelona do it, and it disgusts me when Klinsmann suggests that the US should do it too. And yes, I would also like to see FIFA tell the ref to card card every single player that crowds around him after a controversial call.
Sorry, akindc, but superdave and JoseP are 100% correct. I have read (and even posted) all over this forum that there are distinct roles that are performed by the players, coaches, and refs. How many times here have you read someone say "Hey Coach/Player, let me ref and you coach/play?". This is exactly what Klinsmann is doing - he's coaching. He is doing what he needs to do to get his team in a position to win their next game. It isn't his job to make the refs feel all warm and fuzzy about themselves. These are professional referees, they are big boys and can take care of themselves. In this particular game, the ref did at times seem a little overwhelmed by Brazil (I didn't note you saying that you lost any particular respect for them while they crowded around the ref, often times making the 'give him a card' gesture). Again, this is international soccer and teams know that it is possible to influence some refs by acting that way. I don't condone it, but I also know that at that level of sport, the idea is to win - period. The ref's job is to call the game to the best of his/her ability and act as the only neutral out there. The players will try to do what they can to win and the coaches will likewise attempt to enable their team to win. All Klinsmann did was state the obvious that the US needs to grow up a little on the international stage and understand that the opponents aren't your friends and even in friendlies, everyone is trying to win a game.
And if he encouraged the US to dive to win penalties? You'd be fine with that too? It's bad enough that's he's encouraging his players to hurt the players on the other team. http://www.socceramerica.com/articl...tml?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
this is more about weak officiating than lack of hoinesty amongst players/colaches surely if refs had stronger backbones and did not bend to on filed protest it might die down video replay from above might help
I love the smell of faux outrage. Whatever. All Klinsi did was state the obvious. If no one is going to do anything about it, we will. That is why as a ref you have to have strong command of the game.
...And if my Aunt were a man, she'd by my uncle. He didn't encourage them to dive to win penalties, so stop with the strawman. I read the entire article, and quite frankly, the writer there is being as naive as you when it comes to international soccer. Here's what Klinsmann said: "Maybe we're still a little bit too naive, maybe we don't want to hurt people, but that's what you've got to do,” Klinsmann said after his team fell, 4-1, to Brazil. ... “We've got to step on their toes more and get them more frustrated," Klinsmann went on after the Brazil loss. I don't know if you ever played soccer, but I learned at a pretty early age that defenders were going to grab my shirt, kick the back of my ankles, pull on me, give me a hard foul, etc, all in the name of trying to get an edge. To fight back, I've stepped on toes while standing in front of a wall, held a defender when my FB went to win head a corner so he'd get free, etc. This was just U-12 or so local travel soccer. During all of that time, it was the refs job to call what he saw and apply whatever punishment he so desired - that was the ref's duty. For this article, he didn't tell anyone to break a guys' leg, elbow the GK in the head, or bring an AK-47 onto the pitch to mow down the opponents. He is just trying to bring a level of international experience to a group who are just now being introduced to it.
If a player keeps taking a dive and getting the call, guess what, chances are somebody is going to eventually level that player.
What a massive cop-out. Do you believe that a coach should encourage his team to do anything it takes to win a game, no matter how classless, or not?
He didn't do that. Let's stick to what actually happened. Otherwise, before you know it, we'll be asking if the match would have been different if Landon had a Piper Cub.
Do you want to have a discussion about what JK actually said? Or a theoretical discussion about the ethics of every kind of gamesmanship we see in the sport? By the way, it's a rule of thumb of mine that when someone keeps moving the goalposts, it's because he can't get his shots on frame.
Both, obviously. Is using Klinsmann's comments as a stepping stone to a larger discussion about what role ethics should play in the game too complicated for people to deal with?
This thread is ridiculous. There were a lot of people that felt the CR was a little star struck last night and that happens to the best of us. We get a little in awe of the situation sometimes. That is why we are constantly told, over and over and over, not to get emotionally caught up in the magnitude of the game. Command the game from the get go and keep both teams in concert with your handling of the game. This is why good refs try to find that medium in which the players feel the CR has their backs while promoting the flow and integrity of the game. Crowding the ref and doing nothing about foul situation just breed more contempt and the other team starts taking matters in their own hands. That is why refs are constantly drilled in finding many avenues in alleviating teams taking matters in their own hands. What Klinsi said was if you want to get ahead, the players need to quickly adjust to the situation. He is right because if one team is doing it, you might as well do it to gain the edge. So as CR, don't get caught up and allow this kind of crap to occur.
OK. 1. Diving is wrong. Encouraging diving is wrong. 2. If the referee is not up to the job of policing the other team, you should take the law into your own hands without escalating and without injuring. Now, on to other matter. Theoretically, having a Piper Cub would have made Landon unbeatable in the air, but assuming he's not a pilot, he just would have crashed the plane somewher.
back in theday Ron Harris Norman Hunter Tommy Smith the English 1st div had players who dealt with these individuals
Do you believe Klinsmann should just tell his players that things aren't always just and they just need to live with the way things are?
What US player plays for a world class team. Anyone? No Nobody. Not ONE player plays for a world class team. They aren't good enough, Brazils U23 team was better that's just a fact.
Which brings up the question, does offside only apply in 2 dimensions? Let's see where Dempsey ends up.
If it's Liverpool or Arsenal...I'm not giving you that. Also as a referee now I have to deal with players and coaches that are listening to this guy...the leader of our National Team and they're gonna start diving and surrounding and pulling this BS all over the place. This is why I don't like what he said because now I'm gonna give cards to players, and people are gonna whine that I'm not acting like I should and wilting and giving them all the calls they want. I should point out as well that we as referees are on to it and we're not gonna take it. "Pierluigi Collina, a member of UEFA’s refereeing committee, said: “One of our main objectives is to protect players.“UEFA also does not want to see a referee surrounded by protesting players. The initiators will be shown yellow cards.”So lets see how this pans out.
and when Demps threw an elbow into someone's cranium during play yesterday and proceeded to make the international signal to stop your talking...it sends the message that we all should want. Demps is playing it hard and exactly the way the game is supposed to be played. If you're going to whine to the referee every 2 secs, expect some amount of payback.
I kind of liked us taking the steel to Neymar a few times. We NEVER do this kind of thing, so it was refreshing to see. A little bit of a harder edge is not a bad thing.
Sorry, but I find this to be a massive overreaction. I find particular fault with the bolded word, "now." Now you're going to have to start dealing with this? You really think that more youth players are online reading articles paying attention to what the USMNT coach says post-game as opposed to, oh... actually watching the Barcelona games to which he is referring? And if you're speculating about future behavior... well, first it's just speculation. And second, the top players who would actually dive and crowd referees and whatnot are watching teams like Barcelona regularly to begin with.
No they're going to watch the US National Team do it not read the articles. And yes it's a concern, it doesn't concern you fine but it concerns me because it's already started happening. This will just reinforce it and it'll be a cancer that's hard to cut out of our game just like it's hard to cut out of La Liga and the EPL.