Scout the US

I'm curious why they didn't include categories for dribbling or touch or off-ball movement (does all that fall under ability?). Or athletic categories other than pace, such as strength or stamina. Or intangibles like consistency and work ethic.

 

I really hope the scouting in Europe is more sophisticated than that.

 

I see nothing wrong with this as one method of looking at players. We discussed using a Dutch TIPS-like scoring system back in the spring, but this alternative is fine.

And these initial ratings for Adu and Donovan are reasonable. So, let me try Beasley, our current clear first choice left midfielder.

DaMarcus Beasley:

Shooting - 5 (OK left foot, no right foot)

Passing - 5 (his low crosses are often pretty good, but otherwise nothing special)

Tackling - 6 (relentless, quick and agile)

Heading - 2 (has he ever?)

Pace - 8 (post surgery it's coming back, but not quite back to a 9 yet)

Vision - 6 (off the ball he moves pretty well as a complimentary player, but not so much as a creator)

Current ability - 5 (back-up at Rangers)

Potential ability - 6 (once he is back to 100%; if)

Total score Beasley - 43

 

i think any euro clubs looks at what it's needs are and for players who fill those needs...

you have short term, right now needs, and development needs, a year or two dowm the line...

an adu in portugal is clearly down the line, while at monaco, there's more now in the equaton..

altidore is a future guy, who you hope becomes more imminent...

your style of play, and that of the object of your desire should be comparable

 

Well my points of contention so far: Donovan's heading has to be better than Adu's, since, unlike Adu, Donovan will at least score with his head every now and then. I'd also raise Adu's potential by a point, although like sfs says, that is a big unkown.

As far as Beasley goes - he's not quite a back up at Rangers, more of a rotational player; nobody's really nailed down that left wing spot and Beasley's started there as much as anyone. So if Adu is a 5 there, I do think a rotational player at Rangers is probably higher up the totem poll than a somewhat infrequent sub at Monaco. I might also raise his passing up a point since he can be fairly smart and effective in the final third.

 

This rating system is completely biased in favor of midfielders.

 

Here is my scout rating for Colorado Rapids captain and USA MNT member
Pablo Mastroeni

The scout says: After this current MLS season, Pablo says he has one goal, to play in La Liga or Serie A. At age 32, he is getting a bit long in the tooth, although European teams have already have expressed some interest. Pablo has been a 5 time MLS all-star and is a veteran of 229 MLS matches and 61 USMNT appearances. Somewhat notorious on the field, he is involved in the "Make a Wish Foundation" off it.

Shooting: 2 Prefers to allow others to do it. Pablo has actually netted 3 MLS goals, apparently not watching while a teammate bounced a ball of him. Ordinarily does not find himself in shooting range enough to know.

Passing: 5 This is not a strength, ordinarily. Adequate at best by most observers.

Tackling: 10 By most accounts a "world class destroyer". He knows where the ball is all the time and is willing to go to any length necessary to retrieve it.

Heading: 5 Ordinarily uses his head to clear the ball. Positions himself well. Again, he is not known as an attacker.

Pace: 6 Fast enough to get the job done.

Vision: 7 Reads the game well and gets himself into position nicely. Does his particular job very well.

Current ability: 6 a perennial MLS all-star

Potential ability: 7 If signed by a La Liga or Serie A team. 6 if he signs with a lesser league or stays in MLS.

Overall Scout's ability: 48

 

the donovan 2002 headed goal versus mexico at the world cup is the header i recall mst vividly for donovan

 

Passing and vision probably favors midfielders, although the former is important at most positions. But, shooting favors forwards, tackling favors defenders, pace favors wide players and forwards, heading favors central defenders and target forwards, and the ability categories are vague enough not to favor anyone.

Anyways, my rating for Dempsey, since he's probably the one player I've watched the most of in the past several years (and I'm being intentionally conservative on a lot of these to offset my own biases):

Shooting – 6 (sub-par placement, but good technique and goal mouth instincts)
Passing – 5 (inconsistent)
Tackling – 5 (has played as a stopgap defensive mid before)
Heading – 7 (served as an adequate McBride replacement for Fulham for much of last season)
Pace – 6 (if Adu’s a 6, Clint might be a bit higher but I'll be conservative)
Vision – 7 (can split a defense and put players through on goal)
Current Ability – 6 (1st sub or marginal starter for a Fulhamish club)
Potential Ability – 7 (I could see him sometime down the line being a key starter for a midtable club)

Total - 49

I'll disagree with deuteronomy on tackling and potential ability. Pablo's a great destroyer, but tackles like the one against Italy have hurt him over the years. I'd downgrade him at least a point or two there. I also don't think, regardless of where he moves that a player of Mastroeni's age has much room for improvement in him.

 

The diving header off a Beckham cross earlier this year was pretty sweet, but what made it really memorable was Donovan screaming at a prone Patrick Ianni afterwards. That was some funny shit.

Anyway, I would've knocked Donovan's heading up one point, maybe changed a couple others here & there, but I think SFS's ratings were overall pretty right on. Beasley as well, but I think Pablo may have been overrated on a few, but not enough to knock him down more than 5 points.

And while I have no idea how helpful this is from an actualy scouting perspective, it is pretty fun...

 

It's helpful to the extent that if we on BS come up with reasonable ratings for the US players, then we can compare them to ratings for international players and get a sense of where the US guys fit in. The few US ratings offered up so far have fallen in the 41-50 total points category, which is three rungs below elite.

Let me offer up an international comparison for the heck of it. Let's say a promising young international who isn't quite elite himself, but would be an instant star with us if he had a US passport -- Lucas Podolski:

Shooting – 8

Passing – 7

Tackling – 5

Heading – 7

Pace – 7

Vision – 8

Current Ability – 7

Potential Ability – 9

Total Podolski - 58

He's no Henri, Drogba, or Ronaldo, but he's above anything we have so far.

 

Yes, that totally makes sense, but I just think that there are intangibles that are inherent in a complete picture of a player, and that I'm sure talented scouts take into account. You could lump that in with "potential," but then I don't think these categories should necessarily be considered to be equally important.

So I'm not saying it's not instructive in making comparisons, as long as we can acknowledge that it's not always going to mean that players ranked roughly the same in this system aren't necessarily equal when it comes to what they actually bring to a team, or what scouts would see in those players.

 

Forgive me, but I am not certain I understand your post.

I might also offer the best players in the world, Zidane, Pele, Maradona also offer intangibles including the sense of confidence they gave their teammates. Actually, looking carefully there are intangibles in each of these categories even "pace", which includes some intangibles, also.

 

I think you understand the gist of it, as the lift a player can give to his teammates might be one, or the ability to turn it on or make big plays when it really counts. I think someone like Steven Gerrard would be considered a more valuable player than this scheme can represent based on the way he can carry his team at just the right moment. Donovan too, although that's balanced out by his ability to NOT carry his team at just the right moment, depending on the moment.

And I think I jumbled that thought into the weighting of categories. I'd argue that you wouldn't necessarily want to give the same weight to all those categories, and they'd differ completly depending on what position you're talking about. Hope that makes more sense.

 

Well, all I know is that this should put an end to all that crap about Tim Howard being a top-notch player:

Shooting - 0 (Seriously, how often does this guy put a shot on frame?)
Passing - 2 (Initially rates higher until you realize he has to handle the ball to make 85% of his passes.)
Tackling - 2 (See "Passing.")
Heading - 0 (Don't get me started.)
Pace - 3 (Maybe if he'd run a bit more it would be easier to tell.)
Vision - 8 (I'll give him that.)
Current ability - 2 (It's a miracle he starts given his inability to man-mark or attack a defender in the open field.)
Potential ability - 2 (Not going to get any better until he starts using his freakin' feet.)
Total score - 19

And don't get me started on that overhyped punk Guzan.
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Actually, it's interesting how dismal a player would have to be to qualify as a "no hoper" given that even a great keeper should score probably somewhere between 16 and 20.

(I'd score about a 4, I'm sure.)

 

No wonder you are so grumpy. Pehaps, you should move to somewhere the air is fresh and clear.

 

Good calls on Ching! My numbers in bold.

I got him at a 52. This is a more subjective measure of a player like Ching's abilities. I also believe, he and Pablo both play better for the Nats than they do for their respective clubs. Perhaps, they are called to be a bit more. The single striker scenario requires a lot of thinking. He is not as good a finisher as McBride but has surpassed him in other areas.
This will be a fun thread. Danke, Repped! I hope we can get a lot of players in here and it is interesting to look at where we disagree.

 

SFS, I think your Podolski ratings are not unreasonable, though a tad high, but it isn't worth a heated debate over. He's clearly better than anyone in a US kit, he's still young and has upside remaining, but he's a sub at Bayern these days more often than not.

Plus, I'd leave a bit more room on the scale above Poldi for the truly elite international players.

Since both you and Deuternomy have put out Ching ratings, I'll offer my own more moderate assessment:

Brian Ching:

Shooting - 4 (maybe 5)

Passing - 6

Tackling - 5

Heading - 6

Pace - 5 (you can't curve the scale for Ching because he's a big guy; he has average speed at best for a pro soccer player).

Vision - 7

Current ability - 5 (could be 6)

Potential ability - 5 (maybe 6, but at his peak now, with little to no upside)

Total score : 43 Upper max = 46.

KALM scored Dempsey at a reasonable 49, and Ching must fall in below Dempsey.

 

There is at least 10 points diference between Donovan and any other American player not called Jozy. So it's either Donovan above 60 or anybody else below 45. Unfortunately I don't see Donovan above 60.
Is there any way to rate coaches? I would give Arena 35 and Bob 20.

 

I have several thoughts here and I agree that it isn't worth a heated debate over. I am not so attatched to my own opinions that ordinarily (grin) I don't often suspect someone else's perspective might be better than my own. My own scale may be different, it appears higher than others who have posted.
These are the two areas we show a substantial difference and I have to smile a bit because ordinarily I agree with you more than SFS. These are subjective ratings of course.
I did not skew any pace rating for Ching because of his size. He's plenty fast, certainly speedier than BMB. He also has soccer speed where he accelerates at the proper time. If he were 20 lbs lighter he would probably be faster, but not as effective. I suspect the extra 20 helps him to play the single striker position for the US. I considered giving him a 7 on speed, also.
In terms of potential, Ching is a player who appears to be able to sort out the variables he has to deal with (his technique betrays him at times to be sure) but his thinking is unusually impressive. That gives him a chance to step up, but as I suggested earlier, his technical ability is his concern, no easy issue to address.
I actually rate Ching higher than Dempsey (certainly neither is an elite player). I think he plays his position better (and agree with other posters that it has been difficult to find Dempsey a position, he is kind of a tweener from my perspective) Ching is a match/fit for the position he plays and a tad more consistent (Deuce has a better technical package). Remember in the Guatemala game when Dempsey came out after the 1-0 lead and Ching was left in up top, I thought that was a good decision. I enjoyed Kalm's post and appreciated his thoughts about Pablo, I probably would have rated Dempsey slightly higher in a couple of areas.
I am sometimes surprised/amused at the abuse that Ching occasionally takes by a number of posters (not you Mr.M). Check out the Dynamo posts in the MLS section and you might observe how they admire him. He always comes with his "A" game, he will work hard and his mind is always focused. I am sure he is a great teammate. He has come a long way, when it is considered he is a Chinese American from Hawaii, not exactly a soccer hotbed, making the long steep climb to the USMNT. IMHO, he's probably going to SA unless some unusual developments occur.

 

It was SFS who made the initial comment that Ching was fast for such a big guy, thus indicating he was building in a "curve" for his pace/speed rating, sort of like giving a handicap score for big guys. On a scale of 1-10, an 8 rating is nearly elite-level, and there simply is no way that Ching is on the threshhold of having elite-level (9 or 10 score) pace. Ching has very average pace for a professional player, and average scores would be in the 4-6 range. Ching isn't faster than Dempsey, Kljestan, or Edu for example, and I'd rate those three as 6/7 players tops for pace. Donovan and Wynne are 9 or 10 for pace, like C. Ronaldo. The post-surgery Beasley is an 8.

Ching is functionally good in his specific "target striker" role. But he isn't capable of playing multiple roles (striker, winger, or central mifield) the way Dempsey can. Ching's technical ball skills are weaker than Dempsey's, and he doesn't shoot as well as Dempsey. Ching has scored 7 goals internationally in 30 Caps, while Dempsey has scored 12 goals in 45 Caps. Ching's strike rate is almost as good as Dempsey's, but you have to keep in mind that Ching has played all of his games specifically as a striker, while Dempsey has split his time between striker and midfield. Lastly, the international "soccer marketplace" has also valued Dempsey higher than Ching, based on being aquired by a Premiership team, while Ching hasn't gotten a nibble from abroad. Dempsey simply is a slightly better player.

I very much respect what Ching has accomplished in his pro career. He has an intangeable aspect that all coaches value, something that the ratings scale SFS opened this thread with does not measure. The Dutch TIPS eval system has a specific component for "Personality" in which Ching would surely score very high.