1996 D.C. UNITED--Mark Simpson, Clint Peay, Eddie Pope, Jeff Agoos, Mario Gori (Shawn Medved 70), Richie Williams, John Maessner (Tony Sanneh 59), John Harkes, Marco Etcheverry,Jaime Moreno, Raul Diaz Arce LOS ANGELES GALAXY--Jorge Campos, Mark Semioli, Robin Fraser, Greg Vanney, Arash Noamouz, Jorge Salcedo (Curt Onalfo 77), Chris Armas, Mauricio Cienfuegos, Cobi Jones, Harut Karapetyan (Ante Razov 76), Eduardo Hurtado 1997 COLORADO RAPIDS--Marcus Hahnemann, Chris Martinez (Adrian Paz 59), Steve Trittschuh, Peter Vermes, Matt Kmosko, Marcelo Balboa, Sean Henderson (Ross Paule 81), Chris Henderson, Paul Bravo (Wolde Harris 27), David Patino, Steve Rammel D.C. UNITED--Scott Garlick, David Vaudreuil, Eddie Pope, Carlos Llamosa, Jeff Agoos, Richie Williams, Tony Sanneh, John Harkes, Marco Etcheverry, Jaime Moreno, Raul Diaz Arce 1998 D.C. UNITED--Tom Presthus, Eddie Pope, Jeff Agoos, Carlos Llamosa (Mike Slivinski 81), Tony Sanneh (A.J. Wood 70), Marco Etcheverry, John Harkes, Richie Williams, Ben Olsen, Roy Lassiter, Jaime Moreno CHICAGO FIRE--Zach Thornton, C.J. Brown, Lubos Kubik, Francis Okaroh, Diego Gutierrez, Chris Armas, Jesse Marsch, Jerzy Podbrozny, Peter Nowak (Josh Wolff 79), Roman Kosecki (Frank Klopas 56), Ante Razov (Tom Soehn 74) 1999 D.C. UNITED (4-4-2): GK -- #22 Tom Presthus, D -- #3 Carey Talley, #23 Eddie Pope, #18 Carlos Llamosa (#4 Diego Sonora 74'), #12 Jeff Agoos; M -- #16 Richie Williams, #14 Ben Olsen, #20 John Maessner, #10 Marco Etcheverry (captain); F - #9 Jaime Moreno, #15 Roy Lassiter (#5 Geoff Aunger 87') LOS ANGELES GALAXY (4-4-2): GK - #22 Kevin Hartman; D -- #17 Ezra Hendrickson, #20 Paul Caligiuri, #4 Robin Fraser (captain) (#5 Steve Jolley 9' [#7 Zak Ibsen 80']), #3 Greg Vanney; M -- #2 Danny Pena (#12 Simon Elliott 73'), #14 Clint Mathis, #10 Mauricio Cienfuegos, #21 Roy Myers, F -- #13 Cobi Jones, #27 Carlos Hermosillo 2000 CHICAGO FIRE--Zach Thornton, C.J. Brown, Carlos Bocanegra, Tenywa Bonseu, Peter Nowak (Lubos Kubik 83), Diego Gutierrez (DaMarcus Beasley 70), Chris Armas, Jesse Marsch (Josh Wolff 59), Dema Kovalenko, Hristo Stoitchkov, Ante Razov KANSAS CITY WIZARDS--Tony Meola, Chris Klein (Francisco Gomez 89), Nick Garcia, Peter Vermes, Brandon Prideaux, Preki (Uche Okafor 74), Matt McKeon, Kerry Zavagnin, Chris Henderson, Mo Johnston, Miklos Molnar 2001 SAN JOSE EARTHQUAKES--Joe Cannon, Jimmy Conrad, Troy Dayak, Jeff Agoos, Wade Barrett, Ian Russell (Zak Ibsen 82), Richard Mulrooney, Ronnie Ekelund, Ramiro Corrales, Ronald Cerritos (Dwayne DeRosario 85), Landon Donovan LOS ANGELES GALAXY--Kevin Hartman, Ezra Hendrickson, Danny Califf, Greg Vanney, Paul Caligiuri (Adam Frye 53), Simon Elliott, Mauricio Cienfuegos, Peter Vagenas, Sasha Victorine (Brian Mullan 75), Luis Hernandez, Cobi Jones 2002 N.E. REVOLUTION--Adin Brown, Carlos Llamosa (Rusty Pierce 92+), Joe Franchino, Daouda Kante, Jay Heaps, Leo Cullen, Daniel Hernandez, Steve Ralston, Brian Kamler (Winston Griffiths 90), Taylor Twellman, Wolde Harris (Alex Pineda Chacon 76) LOS ANGELES GALAXY--Kevin Hartman, Alexi Lalas, Danny Califf, Tyrone Marshall, Ezra Hendrickson, Sasha Victorine, Mauricio Cienfuegos (Peter Vagenas 61), Simon Elliott, Cobi Jones, Alejandro Moreno (Chris Albright 67), Carlos Ruiz Now I want everyone to take a look at the forwards that these teams have listed. What is the most common type of pairing involved here? One "withdrawn/creative" type forward and one "out and out striker/finisher" type forward. This would be the case with basically every team that has played in a MLS Cup except maybe Colorado (1997) and San Jose (2001). Now what has DC United put out as a striking pair the last few years? Jaime Moreno and a cast of characters. (i.e. Albright, Conteh, Quaranta) Now while Conteh was an "out and out striker/finisher" type forward, after his first season he was inconsistent. Albright and Quaranta(as we have seen of late) were really better suited for Wing-Midfield positions. Currently Ali Cutris is the only "out and out striker/finisher" type forward on the roster and he is not consistent. So based on the typical DC United lineup where a combination Stewart/Tino, Tino/Quintanilla or Stewart/Quintanilla, their really is not an "out and out striker/finisher" type forward in the lineup. Basically United is playing three or four defenders and six or seven midfielders. As many people, Ray included, have pointed out there is a obvious lack of shooting. To many passes and unselfish play. I think it boils down to putting out a lineup that is made up of players that fit better as midfielders. Now Eskandarian may be a finisher but he not even close to one yet. Santino has shown that he is more dangerous in the midfield. This is where a Dante Washington comes in. He would fit the mold of a "out and out striker/finisher" type forward foil for the "withdrawn/creative" type forwards that we have plenty of. None of the forwards we play right now are of the double digit scoring type that is needed. So I think that the scoring woes are less about a system (4-4-2 vs 3-5-2 vs 3-6-1) and more about personnel.
The personnel, on a talent level, is there. They need to get the ball in to the forwards, and you can't do that when your tactics involve nothing more than sending in lazy, high crosses into the box against tall defenses when we don't have a forward who can dominate the air. Varying the tactics by shooting from distance and making low crosses with forwards running to the near post will keep defenses guessing. Doing the same thing every time will not.
I agree what you are saying. I am saying that without a dominant "finisher" out there this is what we can expect. The team will be lead in scoring by guys with less than 10 goals. Teams don't have to worry about "who is going to mark so-and-so" because there is no McBride, Razov, Twellman, Ruiz on this team. It pains me to say this but I think we might have been better off getting Faria from the Merotards in the deal. Now someone please wash my mouth out with soap.
Also when we do get to the box, we try to play a 1-2 almost every time. Either take people on 1v1 or just rip a shot now and then.
At the risk of being over-redundant, there's no dominant scorer. With the offensive talent on this team, there doesn't need to be. The following people, barring injuries, are capable of scoring 5-7 goals this season. Stewart Etch Quaranta Kovalenko Stoitchkov Olsen Convey Nelsen/Petke (counted as one, as they are primarily set piece targets) Eskandarian/Q2/Curtis (counted as one, late game offensive sub) That's between 45 and 63 goals that we could very easily have without any one individual scoring more than once every 6 games.
True but most of these guys are passing up shots. We get Nelson taking weak shots from his left foot. Guys creating space at the top of the box and looking to pass. They are getting this because we put 7 midfielders out there. They have been better defensivly the last couple of seasons but haven't we been talking about a lack of scoring punch for 2 seasons now. Didn't they go 400 or 500 minutes without scoring last season, I can't remember exactly how long it was. Sure all the names on that list are capable of scoring goals but they are not. Petke, Quaranta and Etcheverry have scored. Over their last 15 to 20 games Convey and Nelson have been the leading goal scorers. There is no breakaway danger guy right now. Earnie or Curtis are the closest and Curtis does no start (for obvious reasons) and Earnie is still finding a rythym with this team.
That's exactly what I've been saying. I don't think it's because there are too many midfielders out there, though. It's been a problem since mid-1999. Goose, who for years could usually be counted on taking a few shots per game, cut back on them (probably because we already had Sonora pushing up so far). Talley and Aunger also stepped up their efforts a bit in the limited roles they played (usually when Sonora or Willams was injured or suspended). We were still scoring plenty of goals (and winning) at the time so this problem looked minor. By the time 2000 came, the shooting had all but stopped. It was believed by many in this forum that Rongen had so destroyed the confidence of the team that they were scared to shoot. The fact that this problem persists, despite the coaching and personnel changes, belies that theory. Only one person, not including Olsen, who missed two years due to injury, has been a constant since 1999. We periodically had players who would shoot. Armstrong, Denton, Lisi and Perez, to name a few, were not afraid to shoot when a small opening appeared and for various reasons (some justified) were traded. And this isn't limited just to midfielders. Our forwards have shown an ability to shoot as well. Quaranta in Dallas last year, and Stewart in Honduras in 2001. They're just not doing it.
I've been screaming SHOOT! for 3 years now. It reminds me of a nice tune we ought to sing... To the same tune as "Your just a bunch of thugs" SHOOT THE F*** ing BALL!
One other point to make about our lack of goal scoring. There is only 1 team this year that I think didn't make a concerted effort to keep numbers back against us for all or most of the match. That was KC (and they're still a pretty defensive bunch). I'm not trying to argue we're a scoring juggernaut. But our lack of goals needs to be kept in this curious perspective--that Dallas, Chicago and even Colorado chose to keep a lot of players back as a deliberate strategy. 1. Obviously, that's tough to get goals against (especially without a good "inside-the-box" player). 2. Why the heck are so many MLS coaches determined to play so defensively (especially against DCU)? In fact, I bet that Metro make a concerted effort (even at home) to play back and not consistently go forward in numbers. That tactical consistency either suggests that a number of MLS coaches are very wary of leaving space for this team OR everyone's just playing conservatively (except for Columbus).
As my brother is very fond of pointing out, that's the "book" on DCU. Let us hold the ball as much as we want, maintain defensive shape, and hit us on the counter. The fact that everybody's doing it to us is testimonial to the accuracy of the assessment. The fact that we haven't found a way to break it down is a testimonial to the fact that we suck. Oh, and "SHOOT THE F---ING BALL!"
Well what just a second. We haven't been giving up goals on counters. I don't think that it means we suck. Let's put it this way, if you were facing a team you thought was impotent offensively (sorry, Hudson started this line of thought), would you bunker? I mean, Arena bunkered at CR b/c we were missing key attackers and we having trouble even getting a point in Saprissa. But he doesn't bunker against T&T or Barbados. If someone sucks, you don't feel a need to keep 8 men back, let alone 11. I'm not arguing that we're the best team in MLS or have played superbly. But right now, flaws and all (including dreadful finishing), I don't think there is a single game in which DCU has been outplayed or the other team has been as good as DCU. I think we've been the better team in each match (in some cases by small margins, in other cases by larger margins). Doesn't do us a lot of good if we don't finish (b/c we don't get points for possession time or defensive stops). But still, we're not being outplayed or even played evenly. People talk about Dallas as a contender for the MLS Cup. Granted it was the road, but I thought we were better than they were and showed more possession, creativity and attack.
All of these are good points. I can see where each of these is also a contributing factor. I just wanted to point out that the 3-defender 7-midfielder setup also has something to do with it but maybe I wasn't clear. I think it is the only factor but it does have some to do with the scoring woes IMHO. I don't think the bunker/counter mentality that DC United faces most weeks is more about simply other coaches trying to get their teams to maintain focus. As we saw in KC this "bunch of midfielders" can create goals if given space. So the best strategy is to clog up United's attack and try to guarentee 1 point and maybe steal a full 3 points. I just think that because these guys look to pass first based on the natural tendencies it compounds the problem. I think teams would have to "unbunker" if Ray went out and got a "vertical threat" at forward be it Dante Washington or someone else, I only metion Dante because his style fits what I think United needs.
Very good points all. My take on Dante Washington is that the salary cap could be one factor that he could not fit with DC United. Which lead me to my other take, that even if he could fit under the salary cap with DC United, Ray Hudson wanted to give Ali Curtis a chance out of loyalty. Ironic that Ray who seems to like experience players, does not take Dante Washington, but because Ali Curtis is a young player he is not given any chances to come into a game (part of the latter is because there are 4 people ahead of him right now). Or could it be that Ray prefers a more international flavor in the experience department? Or could it be that Trask is running the technical show?
I think you hit the nail on the head there. Ray seems enamored with foriegn players. While I think Dante might work in that role, I do agree that the cap has to be a big issue there. Then again the cap would be an issue with almost any foriegn player as well.
I don't think cap is a big issue. Look at where Dante is playing now. They (the Mariners) can't afford to be paying 2 or 3 players at $80K or better a pop. I also don't know I buy the argument about "foreign experience." Kovalenko is basically an American player. He played college ball in the US and pro ball here. Quaranta, Curtis, Eskandarian--they don't have foreign experience. I think it has more to do with Hudson (a) liking the talent he has on attack and (b) not really buying into the target forward role. Look at Miami--even Serna was a guy who liked the ball at his feet and liked to make runs at defenders. Maessner compared Eskandarian and Serna saying they were identical in that nature. I think Hudson (for better or for worse) doesn't think highly of Dante's game and wants a bunch of guys who can play a very flowing, passing, creative, attacking game.
Well then if you are right then I seem to have come almost full circle in my thinking that Ray is wrong in the personel he has chosen. Not that they are bad players but the wrong mix of players. Too many unselfish passing midfielders who won't shoot from the top of the box.