Congress has "defunded" enforcement of the Cuba travel ban. Nobody cares anymore. I traveled to Cuba several times from 1998-2001, while the travel ban was being actively enforced, and have never been contacted about it.
Cool - maybe they just put up a few press releases to obfuscate the issue - keep people confused w/o really doing anything. I'm there dude
If you want your fellow Americans to be well taken care of, educated, and not subject to racial discrimination, how exactly is that hating the United States?
Re: Re: Re: Says leftist: "If I could, I would vote with my feet, instead of my mouth..." "Why are you here?...If things are so much better elsewhere, and if you had a choice, wouldn't you get the hell outta Dodge" Fine, you're right. If I don't approve of the CURRENT ADMINISTRATION, then my sole recourse is to move to France. Yes, I'm patronizing you. As only a liberal can. You may now return to screaming at traffic.
Not quite sure you've been reading correctly... Of course, the biggest thing you've missed is that the above has very little to do with what anyone else on this board thinks. It's the opinion of one leftist, who's lived one life, and had one set of experiences. Many (most) others toward the left end of the political spectrum will alternately want to pull my leftist card for being a capitalist and giggle at my naive utopianism. I'm also really bad about attending our super-secret leftist meetings, so I can't talk to an over-arching "leftist" point of view. You may have attended some of these. If so, let me know where they are. While your initial premise (used to be called America: Love it or Leave it) is silly, it's also dangerous. Did you ever think of asking those who would seek to legislate another morality if they would rather leave the country? Why (other than your own comfort) should fanatical leftist moralizers leave rather than fanatical rightist moralizers? Next time Ashcroft covers up the bare breast of a statue during a speech, should he get a hearty "Love it or Leave it"?
Heres a better idea, since we're fantasizing. Why don't you f--k off to...I'm stumped to think of a country so right-wing and backward that it would consider granting you a visa...in the 70's I would have deported you to the country formerly known as Rhodesia, for instance, or to Argentina, or to Chile, or to South VietNam, but those places have changed, while you're stuck in the Cold Warring 50's. Maybe you ought to get with the program, KK, and leave the rest of us in peace.
Re: Re: Re: Says leftist: "If I could, I would vote with my feet, instead of my mouth..." Your whole stance of "the leftists hate America" is a perfect example of putting words in people's mouths. I'm a slightly left leaning moderate, so I can't speak for all the "leftists" on these boards. But I love America. It's the best damn country in the world. And I would hazard to guess that the other "leftists" posters on this board feel the same way. Just because you refuse to put your head in the sand and recognize the coutry's problems, and thus want to deal with the problems, doesn't mean you hate America. Quite the contrary, it's the most patriotic thing you can do - trying to make the country the best it can be, for all of it's citizens. Stop reading Ann Coulter, Karl.
ME?? I'm putting words in leftists' mouths? When Loney says he "hates" what this country is becoming? I didn't say it, pal, HE said it. And I daresay many many leftists -- and many many who post on this board -- believe it deep down in their souls. Look, want to dissent, want to to talk about problems?? Fine. Want to make things better? Fine. Even want to stick around? Fine. But the problem with the left is that it is ALL about the problems. It's all about the clenched fist, the neck veins bulging, the teeth gritting, the grimace, and the sneer. It's all about income "disparity," or all about health care coverage "shortcomings," it's all about Enron, it's all about Ashcroft "dismantling" civil rights, it's all about the economy "going to hell".....well, it's all about whatever "problem" has bubbled to surface from whichever way the prevailing news currents are flowing. Meanwhile, my position is NOT, "America, love it or leave it." I wouldn't presume to make such demands. It's more subtle than that. If America has so many problems, so many things wrong with it, don't you need to ask yourself, "Why am I here?" Canada has single payer health care -- that's better, right? Why not go there? France is more cosmopolitan, more tolerant of racial differences (except if you're Algerian perhaps) -- that's better, right? Why not go there? Germany, Sweden, Norway, Belgium have broader social safety nets? That's better, right? Why not go there? Denmark has quite level income distribution That's better, right? Why not go there? Germany has better compulsory education at primary and secondary levels. That's better, right? Why not go raise your kids there? Believe me, I am not telling you guys what to do. Do what you can do. But in the end, you have to ask yourselves the question, the REAL question, "Why am I here if other countries have the systems/approaches that I want?" Because, in the end, you're likely not to GET what you want out of the USA.
It's really important for people to publicly criticize a society if they feel that it should be better. Criticism is one of the best ways of making things better. Of course, it's also good to try to offer positive proposals about what we should do differently. In the long run, that is probably the most effective means to solving our problems. But it is understandable that people might be hesitant to offer specific proposals. They sometimes feel that they don't understand the issues well enough. Also, variables change so quickly. For example, I think we should increase taxes on upper income-earners in order to help fund a single-payer health system. But maybe today I would be reluctant to offer that as a proposal; for we have lost about 3 million jobs, and maybe there is evidence that raising taxes -- even for upper income-earners -- would be bad for employment. Also, I might be reluctant to propose a single-payer health system because it doesn't seem as political viable over the next five years or so as does the kind of health plan that Howard Dean is recommending. So, sometimes it's understandable that one would be more apt to highlight shortcomings rather than propose alternatives. And criticism -- even if it doesn't include specific proposals concerning how to make things better -- is often a good thing. For example, one may feel that MLS's salary-cap is too low. One should be made to feel comfortable to say that -- even if it means that one does not offer a specific proposal about what number the cap should be moved to.
Re: Re: Says leftist: "If I could, I would vote with my feet, instead of my mouth..." It isnt the actual speaking out that bothers most people across the board, it is the paranoid, whining, "everything should be unrealistically perfect" attitude that many liberals display.. The continuos harping over miniscule details. Many democrats included hate this drivel that manifests itself in useless cliches like:
In theory, leftists could move overseas. But where? But didn't Jean Marie Le Pen come closer to winning the French presidency than any Republican will ever come to ever being governor in California again? Before he was murdered, wasn't Pim Fortyn very popular in the Netherlands? Isn't the Iraq mess going to bring the Tories back in the UK? Isn't Berlusconi still running things in Italy and Aznar in Spain? Yeah, leftists should probably just stay here & try to make the US better. US leftists should not be like those weak, spineless California conservatives who move to other states in the Intermountain West because they can't handle California.
"You see, [conservatives] love America the way a four-year-old loves her mommy. Liberals love America like grown-ups. To a four-year-old, everything Mommy does is wonderful and anyone who criticizes Mommy is bad. Grown-up love means actually understanding what you love, taking the bad with the good, and helping your loved one grow. Love takes attention and work, and is the best thing in the world. That's why we liberals want America to do the right thing. We know America is the hope of the world, and we love it and want it to do well. We also want it to do good." - Al Franken I think that pretty much sums it up. I ain't goin' anywhere. There's no place that I would rather live than right here.
Karl -- This is the most masturbatory set of rants I have ever read here. And that says a lot. Meanwhile, you're the one with "the clenched fist, the neck veins bulging, the teeth gritting, the grimace, and the sneer." Among popular conservative complaints: -- Big money-grubbing media companies are feeding our children immoral garbage while showing only leftist viewpoints on their "news" programs. -- Foreigners streaming in from Mexico and whatnot are taking jobs away from hard-working Americans and endangering our way of life. And how dare they not speak English! -- The Justice Department isn't doing enough to protect us from smut peddlers and bong makers. -- Everyone who doesn't look like us is a potential terrorist. -- We're taxed too much. WAY too much. High taxes are killing our way of life. Why won't you move away from this socialist stinking hellhole? But you wouldn't recognize it that way, because you are afraid to move to someplace that better accepts your conservative values. Singapore, perhaps. That's it, you're on the ignore list. (Thank you, $30 premium membership!) At least mannyfreshstunna, Cascarino, and Axis Alex are sometimes interesting. And Ian's good for a chuckle once in a while.
Karl, I think you are confusing open debate about policies as a matter of loving or hating America. For instance, conservatives often have issues with the following: Taxes being too high Too many regulations Too much spending on social programs Too much PC Affimative action Environmental regualtions being anti business etc, etc ... The fact that conservatives often harp about these things being "problems" in America, does not mean that they hate America or want to leave. Do you have issues with the above items, Karl? If so, does it mean that you hate America and want to leave? Of course not. The same applies with liberals when they harp about corporate scandal, health care availability, environmental destruction, civil liberties, etc etc ... But it is almost always conservatives that play the "liberals hate America" card. It's so ridiculous and stupid. Oh well, it helps keep the politics board lively.
Re: Re: Says leftist: "If I could, I would vote with my feet, instead of my mouth..." I didn't know Al was that good. Long live Al Franken!
Re: Re: Re: Says leftist: "If I could, I would vote with my feet, instead of my mouth..." You first reaction is the correct one...he isn't that good, either as a political commentator, or a comedian. Of course, the one thing he IS good at is extremely bad taste, and prankish booring behavior while hiding behind the letterhead of Harvard University in a patently unfunny attempt to elicit a reaction from the Attorney General. See: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/frankenabs1.html Of course, he's learning to be a master at PR, and this sophomoric stunt will only add to his liberal lustre, such as it is.
Again, go read Loney's message -- he "hates" what America is becoming. And I am sure a whole lot of leftist, if they scratch themselves long and hard enough, will get down to that particular layer as well. America is not problem-free. But it's awfully awfully good. Reading the leftists around here, you would think it's all coming apart at the seams.
I don't care what Loney said about hating what America is becoming. He is not me, nor does he represent the other "leftists" on this board. He represents himself. However, my interpretation of what he said is that he thinks that America is going off course from it's original democratic, constitutional intentions. Perhaps he doesn't like the direction the Bush Administration is pushing this country (fascist/imperialist government feeding the military/oil industrial complex). But again, recognizing and criticising problems is not evidence of hating America. One thing I will agree with you is that this country is awfully, awfully good. And perhaps liberals don't say that often enough. But they (we) are experssing patriotism the most sincere way of all, through public discourse and action.
So you're saying that anyone who criticises the current government of his country for not doing things in ways demonstrably better than the current way 'hates' his country. And that they should not seek to persuade or agitate the people who run his country to get things done in demonstrably more effective ways, they should just leave their country. Sublime. You'll have to forgive me Karl, I am not sure which euphemism for 'right-wing thicko' you are labelling yourself as this week (I presume you are still not coming straight out with it), but whatever it is, it's getting flimsier by the day, you prototype arch right-wing thicko.
Karl has a point. There's lots of leftists, with many examples here on these boards, who think that when people don't go along with their 'demonstrably' superior opinions that they are morons or evil, etc. People who think that anyone who votes for a Democrat or Republican is a sellout or tool of Rush Limbaugh or fooled by slick TV ads. The conclusion from this line of thought is that the 95% or so of people who don't vote for the latest socialist "make the rich pay their fair share" broken-record are idiots or evildoers. Maybe that's not hating America, strictly speaking. But they do have a hard time suffering us fools who don't buy that condescending leftist line. They're so smart it's scary, but somehow they aren't smart enough to fool us idiots. However, Clarkie, as a foreigner, you are free to hate America as much as you like. Somebody has to live in Liverpool.
Well, as someone who has yet to see Karl have even the vaguest semblance of a point, I feel dutibound to point out that this ain’t it either. Where’s the link between the notion that “leftists” feel inclined to view themselves as intellectually superior to the right and Karl’s purported view that questioning a government equates to “Hate” for one’s country? Remember – this is what I am asking him to clarify: “you're saying that anyone who criticises the current government of his country for not doing things in ways demonstrably better than the current way 'hates' his country.” It’s not the same, full stop. I don’t hate America. As it happens, I’m rather fond of the place. I admire a great deal about the country. But I can certainly understand the frustration of those “lefy elitists” who daily have to deal with people as intellectually constipated as Karl ‘Kanute’ Keller. It would drive me nuts too. And I also find it hard not to smile disdainfully at the more puppy-dog extreme of the “God Bless America” crowd. That Al Franken (whoever he is) quote from earlier in the thread hit it right on the nose from this outsider’s point of view. Some of you need to pack away the Kleenex and get on with acquiring a life. We have a similar type here – the Daily Mail-reading Little Englander who knows what he likes and likes what he knows, who thinks complaining about the state of the health service or the rail network is just making an unseemly fuss and who would far prefer not to have to listen to all these townie types who think they know how things might be done differently. This middle England stalward views “different” in much the same way as Karl and his ilk view coherent thought processes – with inherant distrust.
So what really bugs you about the left is that in the midst of their "fine" dissent, you'd just like them to remind you every once in a while that they love America? Can't you see why smart people sneer at you Karl? You're a silly, petty, hypocrite. You use the "hate America" tag as a political tool, even though it's totally indefensible. Even in trying to defend it, you just end up proving what a confused thinker you are. Lots of generalities without any specific examples. Nonetheless, since this is apparently all you want: "Topics about America that lefties like to celebrate!" [jingoism] - The Civil Rights Movement!! Yippeee!!! We are SOOOO great. MLK Jr. is my hero!!!! America f-ing rocks!!!! - The U.S. university system. Wooohoooo! Intellectual freedom and a great spirit of inquiry. Goddamn we RULE!!!! - Doctors Without Borders. Holy *#*#*#*# is America a fantastic place. Rich doctors giving up their time to go help people around the world. I hope everyone is tearing up right now... - The U.S. Peace Corps. Young idealist Americans building schools, advising on maternal child health care, and teaching English to the poor aroud the world. Did the stinking Romans ever do that? Ottomans? NOPE!!! Again...we are so f-ing great![/jingoism] The list goes on Karl. If you actually paid attention to what progressives actually do/say in places other than the National Review, you'd realize that most demonstrate their love for America on a daily basis. By the way, could you point a single specific example of a reputable lefty saying something against "America" and not against the policies or actions of a PARTICULAR American?
So you really hate America, huh? Kidding, but that's Bernard Kouchner's creation,along with other doctors, all French: http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/about/ Kouchner also created Doctors of the World: http://www.doctorsoftheworld.org/about/default.cfm PS: I mention this because I have a great deal of respect for him."Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar"