Sao Paulo v. Santos [R]

kevbrunton · Oct 18, 2002

Someone over on the Beautiful Game thread mentioned that this was a good game to watch when it was shown tape delay or rebroadcast last night, so I watched it.

It was a very exciting game in a number of ways and I was wondering if anyone else here on the referee forum watched the game and had any comments about some of the referee's decisions.

1) The first penalty kick when the Santos keeper took Kaka down in the area. Keeper got a yellow card. IMO, should have been a red.

2) After the PK goal, Sao Paulo player who scores was cautioned for excessive celebration. A short while later after Sao Paulo had gone up 2-0 and Santos had a player sent off, Santos was able to get one back. After the goal, the Santos player runs off the pitch and goes and dances ON the Sao Paulo logo. No caution or anything else despite big todo between the players -- the Sao Paulo players rightly took exception to the Santos player doing the jig on their symbol.

3) A couple minutes later, Kaka was called for taking down a Santos player in the area -- good call for the PK. However, Kaka was shown yellow which was his second for the tackle. Given what had been being carded and what had not been carded during the game, it didn't seem to me he should have gotten a caution for that foul.

4) When the ensuing PK was taken, the Sao Paulo keeper came off the line early and saved the kick. He was called for coming off the line early and TOTALLY went ballistic. He pushed the CR a couple times VERY strongly -- not just little bumps. Then he, along with most of their bench, bumped and berated the AR (who actually didn't appear to make the call -- at least not with any visible signal). When it was all finally settled down, the keeper was shown yellow. How can he not be shown red for such a contact with the referee?

5) On two occasions, most if not all of the Sao Paulo bench, including the coach, was on the field -- to protest the call of the keeper being off his line on the PK and when the Santos player danced on their logo. No consequences were apparent -- hopefully the league will levy some fines post game.

6) At the end of 90, 4 minutes extra time was announced. There were 5 goals, 2 short injuries, 3 red cards and 4 penalty kicks taken in the second half. For 2 of the red cards there was a LOT of "discussion" amongst the players and there referee before the game was restarted. It also took 3 to 5 minutes for each PK to be taken -- particularly the retaking of the one after the Sao Paulo keeper was judged to have come off his line. After the first Santos goal, there were also several minutes as both benches cleared after the Santos player danced on the logo. After all that FOUR minutes of extra time??? It took 10 minutes just to take the PKs.

Did any of you guys see the game? Any comments on the situations I've described? Any other comments on how the referee managed the game?

Ombak · Oct 18, 2002

Welcome to the Brazilian league.

Players, coaches... anyone but the ref... gets away with too much.

Frankly this is more than usual, but not atypical. Just a lot for one match. But that happens now and then.

Alberto · Oct 18, 2002

Originally posted by kevbrunton
Someone over on the Beautiful Game thread mentioned that this was a good game to watch when it was shown tape delay or rebroadcast last night, so I watched it.

It was a very exciting game in a number of ways and I was wondering if anyone else here on the referee forum watched the game and had any comments about some of the referee's decisions.

1) The first penalty kick when the Santos keeper took Kaka down in the area. Keeper got a yellow card. IMO, should have been a red.

2) After the PK goal, Sao Paulo player who scores was cautioned for excessive celebration. A short while later after Sao Paulo had gone up 2-0 and Santos had a player sent off, Santos was able to get one back. After the goal, the Santos player runs off the pitch and goes and dances ON the Sao Paulo logo. No caution or anything else despite big todo between the players -- the Sao Paulo players rightly took exception to the Santos player doing the jig on their symbol.

3) A couple minutes later, Kaka was called for taking down a Santos player in the area -- good call for the PK. However, Kaka was shown yellow which was his second for the tackle. Given what had been being carded and what had not been carded during the game, it didn't seem to me he should have gotten a caution for that foul.

4) When the ensuing PK was taken, the Sao Paulo keeper came off the line early and saved the kick. He was called for coming off the line early and TOTALLY went ballistic. He pushed the CR a couple times VERY strongly -- not just little bumps. Then he, along with most of their bench, bumped and berated the AR (who actually didn't appear to make the call -- at least not with any visible signal). When it was all finally settled down, the keeper was shown yellow. How can he not be shown red for such a contact with the referee?

5) On two occasions, most if not all of the Sao Paulo bench, including the coach, was on the field -- to protest the call of the keeper being off his line on the PK and when the Santos player danced on their logo. No consequences were apparent -- hopefully the league will levy some fines post game.

6) At the end of 90, 4 minutes extra time was announced. There were 5 goals, 2 short injuries, 3 red cards and 4 penalty kicks taken in the second half. For 2 of the red cards there was a LOT of "discussion" amongst the players and there referee before the game was restarted. It also took 3 to 5 minutes for each PK to be taken -- particularly the retaking of the one after the Sao Paulo keeper was judged to have come off his line. After the first Santos goal, there were also several minutes as both benches cleared after the Santos player danced on the logo. After all that FOUR minutes of extra time??? It took 10 minutes just to take the PKs.

Did any of you guys see the game? Any comments on the situations I've described? Any other comments on how the referee managed the game?
Click to expand...

I saw the low lights on FSW Report last night and agree the keeper should have been sent off. The referee had a lot of cojones for making some very tough, but correct decisions. I'd like to know who he is. He is a referee to watch. Lots of courage and conviction to keep things fair.

Didn't see the excessive celebrations to make an informed opinion.

Penalty kicks should not be added to stoppage unless something crazy happens like carding a player or injury. 4-5 minutes based on the goals, minor injuries and carding sound about right unless the injuries took a lot longer. Don't know since I didn't see it.

kevbrunton · Oct 18, 2002

Here's a couple writeups on this game...

http://www.soccernet.com/global/news/2002/1017/20021017saopaulo.html

http://www.soccernet.com/global/news/2002/1017/20021017brazilclash.html

However, I can't find any sites that list who the referee was. I'd recognize the name if I saw it.

monop_poly · Oct 21, 2002

Saw parts of the game.

1. On the PK stopped by Sao Paulo keeper: he clearly came off his line too quickly and too far (by that I mean he was perceptibly beyond the normal amount of cheating that a professional keeper does). Ref made good (and brave) call. I think that he made his mind up right away that he was going to tolerate almost anything from the keeper in sympathy. The ref could obviously shown RED, but may have done everyone a favor by showing a great great deal of patience.

2. He could have added on about 10 minutes stoppage time, plus another two for all the hysterics that took place during the extra time. I think I dished out and downed a bowl of ice cream during the "discussion" following the Santos logo-dancing thing. I surmise he was thinking "let's get the *** out of here."

Preston McMurry · Oct 25, 2002

More Santos shenanigans: http://www.sportserver.com/soccer/international/general/story/589505p-4588819c.html