San Antonio President Blasts Cosmos Spending

Discussion in 'NASL' started by oneeyedfool, Jan 7, 2014.

  1. oneeyedfool

    oneeyedfool Member+

    Nov 17, 2012
    Club:
    New York Cosmos
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    http://www.soccerbyives.net/2014/01/wynalda-silverbacks-extension.html

    I found this interesting for several reasons:

    1. The Cosmos must be paying Denissen a handsome wage to illicit such a response
    2. The article represents an objection to NASL's free market model, on the heels of Don Garber calling San Antonio a potential expansion market. With Minnesota United exploring MLS, perhaps San Antonio is looking that way too? A race is on for expansion slot #24, it would seem (assuming Miami is #22 and Atlanta is #23)
    3. The San Antonio president feels his team has a self-sustaining business model, while the Cosmos do not. "They can't compete with us on our business model."
    My thoughts on Cornfield's comments:

    1. There is no salary cap so clearly the Cosmos can do what they want. The San Antonio president should know it works that way and there is no use in whining
    2. If San Antonio wants to go to MLS, best of luck to them. It would be a good choice by MLS, a nice sized market not saturated by other big league sports and one of NASL's biggest draws
    3. Legit questions about whether the Cosmos are developing a sustainable long term business model. It all hinges on the stadium. It remains to be seen. Clearly paying a relatively large payroll to play in front of 6000 people at Hofstra will not be sustainable long term. I want the Cosmos around long term so I am eager to see them develop a sustainable and successful business model hopefully with that stadium as a part of it
     
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  2. SoccerPrime

    SoccerPrime Moderator
    Staff Member

    All of them
    Apr 14, 2003
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Even if stadium is built, I wonder if it's sustainable.

    Definitely shows cracks in the NASL united front.
     
    HailtotheKing and athletics68 repped this.
  3. oneeyedfool

    oneeyedfool Member+

    Nov 17, 2012
    Club:
    New York Cosmos
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  4. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If only there were a legal term for such an understanding.
     
  5. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's kind of the point really ... when he sits down with the player and tells him there's no way he can turn it down ? Yeah, it had to be that much more. I know a person or two and while I don't have numbers, I've gathered that what was offered to him by SA was nothing to sneeze at.

    It isn't an objection to the model, but rather an objection to how it is being used.

    There's no secret SA wants to become an MLS franchise.

    He's talking to the bigger picture ... it's one thing for a team to put forth a quality/competitive offer and have healthy competition between clubs in terms of player acquisition. It's quite another for a club to just swing around a purse just because. With their money, the Cosmos have no need to do that. They can play within certain bounds and "united behavior" but still put an offer on the table that's significantly more lucrative.

    This offer was apparently of the type that the Cosmos simply don't give a shit and are acting in a manner accordingly. That's a concern for the entire league.

    And this is part of the bigger picture that I see, and a problem I already see developing with this issue of Dennison.

    The Cosmos appear (and before the Cosmos fanboys rip the comment, actually read what I'm saying) to be playing for themselves only. They say they're in line with the NASL beliefs/model/etc and that they don't agree with the MLS/etc. They've chosen a side. BUT they have apparently done something with this signing that is pretty much sticking the rest of the teams in the league in the gut. So if they're against the MLS/etc but are still on this grandiose vision with the stadium and end point for the club, just how the blue shit does the NASL and the other clubs fit into that ?

    It isn't that the Cosmos outbid the Scorpions. It's that they had no regard for the other clubs/league and just put a stupid number out there because .... why not. I am almost certain they had no reason or need to put out there what they did for him to sign. Doing this only hampers the rest of the league and strangles it ... especially when you've got a team willing to let one of the better players the in the last few years go for the hotel stay when you visit said team.
     
  6. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oh, that's quaint. :)

    The Cosmos have more resources. They can wield them in their own self-interests, as most clubs in most sports around the world do, or they can act more as part of a collective.

    Had this conversation with someone in the media today: the Cosmos and their fans are divorced from whatever happens elsewhere, or even from the repercussions of their own actions. In that respect, they really are authentically New York.
     
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  7. athletics68

    athletics68 Member+

    Dec 12, 2006
    San Diego & San Jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    More than that, in doing so they're also "authentically" the New York Cosmos. Just hope they don't "authentically" end up like their namesake. If there's one thing to learn from the NFL its that a league of competitive teams is better for the overall health of the league than one or two haves and a league full of have nots. It appears the Cosmos have no interest in the former and are working to make the latter a reality.
     
  8. oneeyedfool

    oneeyedfool Member+

    Nov 17, 2012
    Club:
    New York Cosmos
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    They have been pretty clear that they prefer the NASL model over MLS because of the freedom that offers them. The Denissen signing is a lesser example of that than the Marcos Senna signing. It's just that president of Villarreal didn't feel the need to empty his purse on the table when that happened.

    Depending on your perspective, the Cosmos are either good for D2 or bad for D2. On the one hand they will bring a higher quality of play and standard of operation. On the other hand, it may be too far ahead it's time for other teams that sell top players to their rivals in exchange for a place to stay for the night.
     
  9. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I swore we had this very conversation before Al Gore invented the internet, even.
     
  10. athletics68

    athletics68 Member+

    Dec 12, 2006
    San Diego & San Jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Problem is the Cosmos goal is to bring a D1 quality of play and standard of operation to a D2 league (ostensibly because they were rejected by the D1 league (MLS)). Could that up the quality of play and operation around the rest of D2, it's certainly possible. But what is far more likely if history is any indicator is a variation on what happened to the original NASL if the Cosmos push too much. They'll either leave the rest of the neo-NASL in the dust being a huge fish in a small pond ruining the level of competition in the league or the Cosmos will cause the rest of the league to ruin themselves trying to keep up competitively on and off field.

    Mind you all of that assumes the Cosmos can maintain their higher level of operation long term with D2 returns financially, at the gate, on TV, etc... But for now they're operation seems very much like their namesake regarding their relation to their league, and that's not a good thing.
     
  11. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To be fair, a raising of the bar at all levels of US soccer is welcomed and necessary.

    The USSF standards have helped quite a bit in that regard.

    There is nothing intrinsically wrong with doing things the right way, in a professional way, when you are surrounded by people who can, but won't. But the Cosmos are surrounded by some teams that probably can but don't, some who can and do, and several who couldn't no matter what you do. The question becomes, "Can you achieve critical mass of enough professionally-run teams who can be sustainable so that you have an actual league?" That remains to be seen.
     
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  12. oneeyedfool

    oneeyedfool Member+

    Nov 17, 2012
    Club:
    New York Cosmos
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm happy to admit I would prefer the Cosmos were in MLS and I am concerned about their sustainability. That being said, signing Hans Denissen certainly won't break them, though. I hope the other NASL teams get rich owners like Minnesota and Tampa have, and that the whole tide rises.

    Meanwhile, Toronto FC is reportedly dropping $100M to bring in two players.
     
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  13. nanoGVSP

    nanoGVSP Member+

    Jan 31, 2012
    New york
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    I really would like to know what kind of numbers we are talking about. How much more did the Cosmos offer Denison? or what is the total payroll of the Cosmos and the other teams in the league? I too think the Cosmos have to control the spending if they want to be around for a while. If they don't go deep into the USOC we may see a different approach next year.
     
  14. nanoGVSP

    nanoGVSP Member+

    Jan 31, 2012
    New york
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    It's sad that people insist on grouping all Cosmos supporters in one pile. How can you say we are "Divorced from what ever happens elsewhere", I see Cosmos supporters in threads all over the NASL. That you don't like their opinion is an entirely different issue. As I said in another thread Blanket statements are wrong 99.9% of the time.
    Now the zinger you are stereotyping New Yorkers. You couldn't be more wrong, you don't see what I see here every day.
     
  15. Mr.Smartypants

    Mr.Smartypants Red Card

    Jul 1, 2010
    Club:
    University College Dublin
    Do you really know what the offer is? Is it out of line with his market value as a Golden Boot runner up and NASL Best XI? Lets no forget that San Antonio also lost 2012's leading socrer to MU in the offseason over wages as well. Perhaps, SA simply is unable to keep their players financially happy and thus are vunerable to losing their top players for failure to pay the going rate.



    Cosmos currently expend less on wages that the minimum MLS salary cap, which has already set domestic salary rates artificially for pro domestic players. Seriously, we are talking about Hans here...i bet they are paying him maybe 100-150K a year at most.

    Or they just saw a good out of contract player and offered to pay him his worth which he was not going to get staying in San Antonio. Lets not pretend Cosmos are offering a million dollars to ever good NASL player for shits and giggles.




    Dude, the Cosmos and their ownership expend more time and investment in NASL and sharing best practices than all the other teams combined. They are interested in helping NASL raise the bar on the whole, to say otherwise is completely counter to what they have actually been doing.
     
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  16. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Think about the world Cornfield used .... "ludicrous"

    I said I didn't have the numbers, but I do know that what was offered was absolutely reflective of his role/performance with the team and his status as cult hero. Campos ? Yeah he's developing a track record (one year in Carolina - bolt .... one year in SA - bolt), and Minnesota had a spending spree that season (which falls in line with what Cornfield's overall point).

    I'm sorry, do you really know what the "market value" is for this level and the players at their respective ability levels ?

    How can you determine a going rate if you've got a team just tossing wages around ... just because ?

    Again, a quote:
    It was so ridiculous that I honestly sat with Hans and I said, 'For the good of your family, how do you say no to this?'” Cornfield said."

    You really think that's all posturing ? Come on now.

    You have the Cosmos wage numbers ? I'd love to see them.

    The number is irrelevant ... it's what it is compared to everything else in the NASL. MLS numbers mean dick in this discussion. If the average scale is 25-40K ... and the "best" players are on 60-80K (Campos was rumored to be on 90K) ... then yeah, an offer that increases that by 56% (125K offer versus 80K .. for illustrative purposes only) is a bit more than just "offering to pay his worth" ...

    Let's not pretend I'm doing that simply because we aren't on the same side of the discussion.

    "Ludicrous" and "so ridiculous" .... words from Cornfield, who knows both sets of numbers. But yes, he's doing this publicly because he feels sorry for himself and there's absolutely no validity to this. He's put this out there because they can't offer the "going rate" (yeah let's ignore that Zahorski was offered enough to re-sign, and that they could offer enough to get Barrera and Fana at that going rate).

    ... something about pretending something for giggles and shits and such.

    How does that proposed stadium and the "Cosmos vision" fall in line with what you just said ? Let's be real about it .... yeah ?

    What other team can do anything close to that, that doesn't have an eye on moving beyond the NASL ? How do the stated intentions of the Cosmos fall in line with sharing best practices for the NASL and its other clubs ? How is doing what only they can do being in the interest of raising the bar of the NASL as a whole ? There's no end point that works for both them, and the NASL with what their current vision/plans are.
     
  17. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    I don't think there is a minimum, but since it is a budget the min would be the allowed MLS Salary budget of 2.7 or 2.9 million, I think all teams are above that (allocation money/HG/DPs).

    So yes it is easy to assume the Cosmos pay less than that.

    I would be shocked if they paid more than 1.5 Million.

    Maybe 1 million. Big maybe.
     
  18. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Dec 17, 2007
    PSG & Enyimba FC
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Nigeria
    #19 Unak78, Jan 11, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2014
    Yeah because the MLB is teetering on bankruptcy.... :whistling:

    Look I have no problem with the NFL or MLS' models, but they're far from the only manner of competing successfully. Most of the NFL's success has more to do with football and less to do with this whole parity myth that keeps getting bandied about. That parity mantra is actually the owner's way of convincing the fans that any such thing truly exists any more than it does in the other leagues. In the cap saves the owners money which is all they truly care about. Football is the most popular sport in the country and that didn't happen because of the salary cap. So let's quit patting the NFL on the back for creating the deus ex machina of commercial success bc the salary cap is not a cure-all. NASL failed because they were a soccer league existing in the 70's without a successful USMNT, without SSS, without a substantial television presence or means to control non-soccer-related revenue. Pinning it on the Cosmos is a popular meme, but an inaccurate one. But society loves to believe it's myths, like the drug war, God, or trickle-down economic philosophy.
     
  19. penske

    penske Member

    Feb 21, 1999
    NYC
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How's the cost of living in NY vs San Antonio. Don't know, I'll tell you, about 30 to 40% higher. Also, the competition for Hans isn't the rest of the NASL, it's the rest of the world. The Cosmos evaluated his talent and concluded he was worth a very large increase for COL and performance. Your team made $675K last year and you gave it to charity instead of your top 3 players the past 2 years. Don't blame the Cosmos because your owner is more interested in his charity. If they hadn't done it, some European club wold have.

    A new stadium does you nothing if your owner is using it only as a vehicle to fund a charity instead of fielding a winning team. People will stop showing pretty quickly.
     
  20. SoccerPrime

    SoccerPrime Moderator
    Staff Member

    All of them
    Apr 14, 2003
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm fairly positive that the Cosmos player moves have absolutely nothing to do with with profits made from the previous years. I'm guessing thats at the root of the other NASL fans issues.
     
  21. penske

    penske Member

    Feb 21, 1999
    NYC
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The Cosmos are on record saying they lost a small amount of money in 2013 due to start up marketing costs that can't be deferred more then a year but expect to be at break even or profitable this year. I'm sure the extra $25K over what the SA President thought was reasonable isn't going to break the bank.
     
  22. greenroom

    greenroom BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 16, 2012
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think most people don't understand that Campos was gone from San Antonio for several reasons. I don't think that the salary was the main reason. Not saying it is right or wrong, but I don't think Campos was the type of player off field they wanted. And lets be honest on field he was no angel.

    And to say that the owner is more interested in his charity, is probably fair to a point, but SA is still in the top half of the salary, so it is not like they are being super cheap. They are putting money into the team and into the facilities. And to be honest, I know the owner says the right things about MLS, but I do think it will be someone else in the ownership group that will get them to MLS.
     
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  23. blacksun

    blacksun Member+

    Mar 30, 2006
    Seoul, Korea
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Pacto de caballeros?
     
  24. oneeyedfool

    oneeyedfool Member+

    Nov 17, 2012
    Club:
    New York Cosmos
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I expect he was going for collusion. Apologies if you are being facetious but we can't take that for granted as even an esteemed genius such as the president of the San Antonio Scorpions seems to have forgotten that a gentleman's agreement between competitors to suppress employee wages is frowned upon.
     
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