Rough start to the fall season

Discussion in 'Referee' started by intechpc, Aug 27, 2007.

  1. intechpc

    intechpc Member

    Sep 22, 2005
    West Bend, WI
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    OK so I pretty much reff'ed all Summer long but there was about a 5 week break between ODP and my first "fall" season game. Well let me say it's been a rough start. As I posted in another thread, I refereed a tournament last weekened and had to have a parent removed from the sidelines for the first time in my ref career.

    Well this past weekend I was refereeing another selects tournament. Being new to the tournament and not knowing the assignor, I ended up working the U12 field all weekend. I was center on a U12 girls match. In the second half, red leads white by a score of 3-0 with about 15 minutes remaining. White is driving to the red PA when on a pass my AR flags offside, good call and one I agreed with. White coach starts going ballistic on my AR. While the girls are setting up for the free kick, the AR tries to calm the coach and explain the call with no luck.

    Finally we're ready to restart on the field, but the AR is still engaged with the coach so I yell across the field "Coach please sit down". He snaps around to me and tells me he doesn't have to sit down. So I start walking to the sidelines and tell him 3 more times to sit (with increasing forcefullness) to which he remains defiant. I'm trying hard to keep this from getting ugly but he won't comply so I send him off. He won't leave!! I try for quite a while to get him to leave the field but no dice. Warned him at least 4 times if he doesn't go the match will be ended. Finally he says to me, "Well then end it". So that was it, match abandoned. UGH :mad:

    That's the first time I've ever had to abandon a match and of course its with the tournament assignor there watching. In some post match discussion with the coach (who had finally cooled off), I found that his issue was he felt I insulted him in front of the parents and players by asking him to sit down. I felt I was very polite about it but he took it very personally. I don't know if this is a cultural thing (he was of Mexican descent) as I've used this tactic before without issue.

    All in all I guess what I learned is I need to handle that situation a little differently at the outset. Perhaps just telling him "Enough" or something to that effect rather than asking him to sit. Another lesson learned but damn what a rough way to begin this season.
     
  2. IASocFan

    IASocFan Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 13, 2000
    IOWA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There is no requirement for a coach to sit down. He may be required to STFU, but never to sit down. It might have help to insist on him being quiet, or to stay in his technical areas, but not to sit down.

    The standard procedure would be to dismiss the coach, before terminating the game. If he doesn't go, then you could terminate the game.

    As far as insults go, it sounded like he was insulting to the AR!
     
  3. Claymore

    Claymore Member

    Jul 9, 2000
    Montgomery Vlg, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Other than telling him to "sit down", it sounds to me like you did all you could to keep the game going. Sometimes there's just nothing you can do about an idiot coach.

    On a seperate note, why does this always seem to happen with the U-littles?
     
  4. Doug the Ref

    Doug the Ref Member

    Dec 6, 2005
    St. Louis
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Instead of focusing on your desired result of wanting the coach to be quite and return to the bench/technical area, it seems that you and he got caught up on "Sit Down." Your post game reflection and using "Enough", seems to be better. Short and to the point. You communicate accomplish what you want. "Sit Down" reminds me of a command to a coach/player of "Not Another Word", and the coach responds "Another Word". We back ourselves into a corner with these type of commands.
     
  5. Yellowshirt

    Yellowshirt New Member

    Aug 21, 2007
    Doug stated

    "We back ourselves into a corner with these type of commands."

    Very true. Referees can quickly find themseleves in trouble when making such statements

    Telling a coach to "sit down" will very often be poorly recieved by the already enraged coach as the referee has no authority to give such a command.

    A simple and calm "Coach, please return to your bench area" is sufficent and certainly within the powers of the referee to do so.

    If he does not then simply caution the coach and if necessary send him off. If he does not leave (as was the case) then you and your crew leave.

    It is almost always best to say as little as possible to coaches.
     
  6. Spaceball

    Spaceball Member

    Jun 15, 2004
    Rather than caution and send off, I would suggest warn and dismiss. Based on the way this scenario was explained, I am guessing the tournament did not have special rules allowing the display of cards to coaches. Therefore, since it is not explicitly allowed, you can't show the coach cards. This changes the terminology a bit
     
  7. Yellowshirt

    Yellowshirt New Member

    Aug 21, 2007
    I stand (actually I sit :)) corrected

    NJ is one of only a few places that allow cards to be shown to coaches.

    You are correct, unless the local rules dictate cards to coaches then "warn" and "dismiss"

    Interstingly, I have yet to find anything that allows local leagues etc. to permit cards to coaches....to the best of my knowledge this is not something that can be modifed as is size of the ball, substitutions etc.
     
  8. refereejoe

    refereejoe New Member

    Aug 20, 2007
    Bay Area - Cal North
    Hi intechpc, thank you for sharing your story. As you found out, things don't always go as well as the referee hopes. While I applaud your effort to rescue your AR from the coach and restore order to the sideline quickly, unfortunately I think your choice of tactic can be better!

    The first recommendation would be to not yell :) Yelling at somebody tends to prompt them to yell right back, which really is not such a good thing. Instead, I find it more effective to quickly run over to where the altercation is happening and speak firmly to the coach (but not in a condescending manner!). Although we can control what we say when we yell, and thus can monitor what is said for appropriateness, we cannot control what the coach or other person will say in response. If they yell it out, it can be defaming or a challenge to authority, or even inappriorate language; these are things we do not want to have yelled for all the world to hear! So, best to use tactics that ensure what the coach says in response will not be yelled.

    The second recommendation would be, as others have already pointed out, is to avoid making commands that suggest the coach or other person is subservient. Commanding somebody to sit down is reminiscent of a parent scolding a child, and nobody likes to be scolded OR treated like a child! And, further, it is not within the power of the referee to require that the coach be seated. We can only require that he remain within the technical area, and behave in a responsible manner. So to that effect, I recommend the referee use language along the lines of, "Coach, that is enough. Please return to your technical area." If he protests, then you can say a little bit more loud and firmer, "Coach, I said that is enough." If he doesn't get it by this point, you may dismiss him: "Coach, you're going to have to leave. You're dismissed from the match."

    The best practice is to keep what you say very short and to the point. Do not elaborate, do not stammer, and do not lose your cool!

    The final recommendation is not to allow for so many warnings, or to repeat the same warning. You mention you told the coach to sit down 3 times, with a total of 4 warnings. My personal opinion is that you can quietly warn once, publicly warn once (possibly twice if you can see the coach is almost backing down, just cut him off quickly), and then dismiss. Also, getting louder or more forceful is a slippery slope you have to be careful of. Maybe get a little louder and a little more forceful, but don't get too loud or too forceful or the coach will be offended and retaliate (see first recommendation on not yelling).

    So, while I think your mind it in the right place in wanting to stop the altercation immediately and protecting your AR, you might have some better luck with different tactics next time. The above has worked will for me over the years, but you may find techniques that better suit your own style as well. Hopefully others will share their techniques to so we can all get better :)
     
  9. stryker29

    stryker29 Member

    Oct 2, 2006
    You did the right thing. There is no room for gray area. If a grown man cannot control himself in a game played by kids, he needs to be ejected. Actually, he should'nt be around kids at all. I have seen these psychos over and over. Get them all out of the sport. Pathetic parents and coaches ruin the game for kids.
     
  10. intechpc

    intechpc Member

    Sep 22, 2005
    West Bend, WI
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Lots of good info here folks thanks. Yeah the sit down request (and it did start as a simple request, when I say yell I mean only in the sense of saying it loud enough to be heard across the field) is in retrospect outside the LOTG. A subtle but important difference between remaining in the technical area and being seated. I always read "return to his position" as being seated but I guess as I re-read it now, no where does it say be seated.

    Running over and conversing with the coach would definitely have helped as well. I did paint myself into a corner once he responded openly that he didn't have to comply with my request. Now I was stuck because here we are in front of impressionable young children and he's teaching them that it's ok to defy the referee. He and I did actually talk about this subject after he had cooled off following the match.

    So now the trick is learning from this and putting it behind me. The learning part is easy, I was already able to apply what I learned in two matches the following day where we had extremely volatile coaches. However, the putting it behind me part I'm finding is a little harder to do. So much second guessing and wondering about how much I've hindered my credibility with the assignors and such (the AR in question here is also my local assignor).
     
  11. IASocFan

    IASocFan Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 13, 2000
    IOWA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Were you really in a corner?

    To "I don't have to sit down," you could have changed your request to "then leave the AR alone, return to your technical area, and let us continue the game."
     
  12. intechpc

    intechpc Member

    Sep 22, 2005
    West Bend, WI
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yep, I see what you mean. Not a bad suggestion either.
     
  13. NHRef

    NHRef Member+

    Apr 7, 2004
    Southern NH
    Depending on how far away you are, I wouldn't run over, I'd walk. Gives a cool off period for all involved, you, him, the AR.

    One comment I have used which worked, though it might not always is "you don't have to like or agree with the call, but you do have to live with it" I haven't used it on coaches, but have on players.
     
  14. Spaceball

    Spaceball Member

    Jun 15, 2004
    If this hinders your credibility I would be disappointed in your assignor and others. As an experienced referee, one of the things I stress to young and up and coming referees is the need to address poor behavior from coaches. While you have admitted your approach may not have been the best, your goal was to protect your AR. Any assignor who does not value a referee protecting his AR is not an assignor I would care to work for.

    If you feel that you have hurt your credibility, have the conversation you have had here with your assignor. Explain that you realize you made a mistake in the way you handled it, but want him to know that you would again come to the support of any AR that is being harrassed. Ask him for his advice and tell him how you think your performance could be improved upon.

    I think you can do nothing but help your stock in the eyes of assignors in this case. You showed authority, courage, and teamwork...all things that are difficult to teach. You are still learning and the fact that you understand your methods weren't perfect is outstanding and shows me you have potential to get better.

    I would say be proud of what you did, but learn that there may be better ways to deal with it in the future...but be certain there is a future and don't let this discourage you. If I let every mistake I made discourage me, I don't think I would have made it past grade 7!
     
  15. bluedevils

    bluedevils Member

    Nov 17, 2002
    USA
    While this is a referee board and we are NOT trying to give advice to coaches in this thread, I do hope that the coach learned something from this unfortunate incident: in a pissing contest, the referee will win if he wants to win.

    Seriously, while it would have been great if intechpc had handled this more diplomatically and gotten everybody back on track and the game restarted, the coach chose to play chicken with the ref. He lost. Sometimes, maybe he would win -- perhaps he has won in the past, steamrolling over refs who gave in, and he elected to roll the dice once again.

    Although taking the stand and ultimately dismissing the coach was not the BEST way to handle things, neither was it the WORST. If you had taken the stand and then backed down without reaching a resolution that satisfied both you and the coach, that would have killed your credibility AND it would have encouraged the coach to do it again.
     
  16. intechpc

    intechpc Member

    Sep 22, 2005
    West Bend, WI
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well thanks for the words of encouragement guys. I'm ok with how things went down, it was a learning experience for me. I'm hopeful that it didn't negatively impact my standing with the assignors that were present, I'm just very paranoid about that. I'm 30 and have a goal of being a State-6 referee so I'm trying to build up my game experience as fast as I can. I feel like I can't afford many setbacks in the eyes of my assignors and administrators so I get probably a little more paranoid than I need to be.

    I don't have any indications from the assignors that they feel negatively about my performance other than a few of the items discussed here. Hopefully that's a good sign and I can continue to prove myself.
     
  17. IASocFan

    IASocFan Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 13, 2000
    IOWA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    After having played as an adult and having coached junior high for one season, I refereed my first game at 32 without any prior training. Over the next ten-twenty years, I concentrated on raising 4 kids, getting divorced and remarried, job, and coaching my kids. (Sometimes in that order!)

    I've continued to referee for 30 years now, but, as my kids are grown, and no one is asking to to play on their team or to coach their kids, I've been doing increasingly more refereeing.

    Some of my early referee experiences were great. Some were downright frightening - usually problems with player/coach management. My biggest regrets were not get help from a mentor, and not trying to advance. Also, I've never kept a game log; it would have been a good idea!

    Stay in shape and keep pushing yourself! I still find things I need to do - like make sure my AR knows that ball has to go all the way over the line to be a goal! :eek: Good luck on your journey!
     
  18. NHRef

    NHRef Member+

    Apr 7, 2004
    Southern NH
    Get upgraded to a 7 ASAP, this is a pretty easy upgrade, the kicker is the assessment on a full 90 minute game of older youths, I believe over U17. You have to be a 7 for at least a year before becoming a 6 and you will have to be the 7 to get game experience at the level you need to become a 6.
     
  19. gildarkevin

    gildarkevin Member

    Aug 26, 2002
    Washington, DC
    Honestly, I was pretty much in the same situation you are. I had started reffing in HS, stopped when I was in college and law school and only got back to it when I was about 27 or so. I didn't even set a goal when I started back to refereeing. And my first games, looking back now, were pretty dicey. They were HS aged kids, as I recall, for the most part, but still recreational in nature. I was probably put on them because I was fit and knew the game. I can recall matches where I did certain things completely wrong and where I didn't have the presence I have now. I'm sure that there were criticisms.

    But, as others have said, I stuck with it, tried to learn from each experience and, more importantly, let assignors and assessors know that I was interested in improving myself. At the level you're at, looking to go to 7, that can be as important as your on-field performance.

    I eventually set a goal for myself that I thought was pretty realistic. Like you, I simply wanted to get to Grade 6 at some point. I'm sure I continued (and continue) to make mistakes that I'd consider horrifying, but I constantly work to improve myself and get better. That's why, in fact, I set a reachable but tangible goal of getting to State Level, so that I'd have some means of both assessing and furthering my own progress.

    You'll generally find, by the way, that as you move to 7 and likely get some better games, you'll also be working with more experienced referees that will provide invaluable feedback and examples on a regular basis, rather than simply awaiting feedback from an assessor or assignor.
     
  20. Tarheel Ref

    Tarheel Ref New Member

    May 3, 2007
    Chapel Hill, NC
    Hey, Intech, it sounds like we're on similar tracks. From what I've read, I can't really fault you for anything except...like others have pointed out already and I don't mean to keep bringing it up...that "sit down" thing. Keep in mind for the future that changing your course (tack if you're a sailor) can help defuse volatile situations sometimes.

    When I ask a player to come to me for a cautionable offense and they ignore me, I don't always demand they respond...sometimes I'll just show the yellow to their back (they know they're getting a caution 'cause my hand is in my pocket) and move on...not proper mechanics but better than getting into a shouting match or battle of wills.

    Everything else you relayed sounds like you handled with firm authority the coach who was DETERMINED to make a mountain out of a molehill. Just remember for next time what not to do and file this away as a learning experience. I tell folks about my refereeing (and life in general) that while I may make a lot of mistakes, I try to not make the same mistake twice.
     
  21. zeusbrowne

    zeusbrowne New Member

    Dec 12, 2006
    West Orange, NJ
    I always found that if I told a player's retreating back that if I had to show them a caution to their back that it would be followed by another caution for dissent ("by word or action") that I could get the response I wanted. Although I would be a bit more direct in real life, saying something like "Get your ass back here before the card changes color," loud enough for the player and, most importantly, teammates in the vicinity, but not for the sidelines. Then give him (or her) a few seconds to process it and for common sense to prevail. Even if the player is still defiant you've now enlisted his/her teammates to prevail on the player to take their medicine.

    The key for me was enlinsting the teammates to act as cooler heads and making the threat as close to sotto voce as possible. When you drop your voice to a 'for your ears only' tone it is actually a much, much more serious threat than if you shouted it to the heavens.;)

    As always, of course, pick your situations as all matches and players don't deserve this sort of tough love. And of course, if a player doesn't respond you've got to follow through. I never minded, since the whole refusing to turn around thing always really got my goat, but if you don't think it fits your style I'm OK with that too.:)
     
  22. intechpc

    intechpc Member

    Sep 22, 2005
    West Bend, WI
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think we all pretty much knew this already but just an update. The Selects assignor that was my AR obviously didn't have any negative lasting impression, I just got a number of game assignments from him including centers on a U18B and U13B. So that's good news.
     
  23. Tarheel Ref

    Tarheel Ref New Member

    May 3, 2007
    Chapel Hill, NC
    No you're right and I'll file away this advice for use in the future. I do enlist problem players' teammates to help to get him to back down in confrontation situations but haven't applied it when they refuse to walk to where I am to take their caution.

    Most of the time this happens to me is Latino leagues where I don't have the language skills for the sotto voce communication necessary to get the point across...I wouldn't accept it in USSF or HS matches.
     
  24. duality72

    duality72 Member

    Jun 3, 2002
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Is there anyone that can check my Spanish?

    Si andas, esta tarjeta cambia color.
     

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