Roster, Draft Picks, Allocations, Discoveries: What we know, how we know it. [N&A]

Discussion in 'D.C. United' started by Knave, Nov 13, 2003.

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  1. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
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    So it’s the off-season. That means it’s time to get our facts straight. I suspect this can all be done in one thread. I've got things started here. Hopefully the collective wisdom of this board can provide missing information, other relevant information and correct any mistakes I've made below.

    Retirement projections and whatever else aside, here’s the current roster with as much information as I could gather. Let’s just establish a proper baseline of what we’ve got right now. I believe our roster currently stands at 25, rather than the regulation 24, because of the Reyes situation.

    Baumstark, Clint	???? (80% sure he's P-40)
    Perea, Trevor		DEV
    Barclay, Devin		P-40
    Carroll, Brian		P-40
    Eskandarian, Alecko	P-40
    Stokes, David		P-40
    Convey, Bobby		SEN
    Namoff, Bryan		SEN
    Olsen, Ben		SEN
    Petke, Mike		SEN
    Prideaux, Brandon	SEN
    Quaranta, Santino	SEN
    Stewart, Earnie		SEN
    Rimando, Nick		SEN
    Warren, Doug		SEN
    Cerritos, Ronald	SEN, GC
    Etcheverry, Marco	SEN, GC
    Kovalenko, Dema		SEN, GC
    Martins, Thiago 	SEN, GC
    Stoitchkov, Hristo	SEN, GC
    Reyes, Milton		DISC, SEN, GC
    Quintanilla, Eliseo	DISC, SEN, T-I
    Ivanov, Galin		S-I, SEN
    Nelsen, Ryan		S-I, SEN
    Alegria, Jose		T-I, SEN
    Roster Key

    ???? = Don’t Know
    SEN = Counts against the senior roster (18 players max)
    DEV = Developmental (DEV + P-40 = 6 players max)
    P-40 = Project 40 (P-40 + DEV = 6 players max)
    DISC = Discovery Player (4 players max, may add max 2 per year)
    GC = Green Card
    S-I = Senior International (3 players max)
    T-I = Transitional International

    Question: Are there actually restrictions on the number of T-I’s a team may have? Do they count in the senior roster or not?

    Draft Picks

    1st Round: To Dallas for Cerritos
    2nd Round: To Chicago for Stoitchkov
    3rd Round: To KC for Quintanilla
    4th Round: One pick. ## ?
    5th Round: One pick. ## ?
    6th Round: To Dallas for Cerritos


    The You Suck Allocation: Our thanks for making the playoffs is that we are owed no such allocation.

    The Etcheverry Allocation: Maybe we get one here. But that’s a big maybe. See Goff’s thoughts below.

    “If an out-of-contract Etcheverry leaves DC, does the team receive an allocation?? Good question, and at the moment, I don't have an answer. My guess is that they would not receive one.” (Goff, Online Chat, 11/7/03)

    The Adu Allocation: One way or another we’re probably getting Freddy Adu. So if through the sleight of hand of some old-fashioned MLS magic we do end up with an allocation then I bet it’s used on him.

    In short, we likely have no allocations. If we do have one it’ll probably go to Adu.


    We currently have two and we can get two more next year. However, isn’t there some regulation about having X number of dollars available for a transfer fee per year but you can use up to three years of those dollars at once. I don’t remember exactly but I thought we used three years of those dollars to get Reyes. Was that the case? Do we have money available for a transfer fee? If so, how much?

    Useful Links

    DC United Transactions:
    MLS Regulations:
    DC United Roster (
    DC United Roster (MLSNet):


    I will update this post as more information becomes available and as corrections and additions are made.
  2. Atouk

    Atouk BigSoccer Supporter

    DC United
    Apr 16, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    Queens Park Rangers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Martins and Stoitchkov should be "SEN (GC)" rather than "SEN" -- and thanks for working up the list!
    ("Martins holds a Green Card and will not fill the Senior International spot vacated earlier this season when Hristo Stoitchkov received his Green Card from the Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services.")
  3. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    Of course. Thanks for the correction.
  4. Sandon Mibut

    Sandon Mibut Member+

    Feb 13, 2001
    Warren is a full-roster, counts towards the 18 and the cap, type player.

    Baumstark is roster-exempt.
  5. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    Is Baumstark P-40?
  6. owendylan

    owendylan Member

    May 30, 2001
    DC United
    Here is the reg on discovery players.

    "A team may request that the league sign a U.S. or international player who is not currently under contract to MLS and assign the player to the requesting team. A team may add no more than two senior roster Discovery players by request in any calendar year, and shall have no more than four Discovery players on its senior roster at any time. Teams may trade Discovery players but may not trade Discovery player “spots.”

    Teams will have unlimited discovery opportunities for Developmental players."

    So it looks like we can add 2 discovery players to our roster.

    Here's the reg. for Transitional players:
    "For the 2003 season, MLS will allow up to 20 league-wide places for young international players, who need not be distributed equally among all MLS teams. These youth international players will be considered Transitional Internationals. "

    So we can have as many as we want but there can only be 20 in the league. This may change for the 2004 season and we don't know if any current TI's will not be back next season (like the Argies in Ny or Chino or Quintanilla) which would open up league wide spots. It also looks like the TI's count against the cap and the Senior roster.

    Here's the roster reg.

    For the 2003 season MLS Rosters will include 24 players, six of which must be signed to either a Nike Project-40 or Developmental contract. Up to three Senior Internationals can occupy one of the 18 remaining roster positions."
  7. TheSlipperyOne

    TheSlipperyOne Member+

    Feb 29, 2000
    Arsenal FC
    Baumstark has a weird deal with the league that any team that needs help in goal (ie. short on backups due to injury) can have him.

    So, whether P-40 or not, he is considered roster exempt.
  8. entropy

    entropy Member

    Aug 31, 2000
    People's Republic of Alexandria, VA
    DC United
    Why would we necessarily have to use an allocation on Adu? Is it b/c that'd be the only reasonable/feasible way for us to acquire him? Not that I doubt Adu has talent and potential, but using a full allocation on an unproven 15 year-old doesn't sound like the best idea.
  9. sch2383

    sch2383 New Member

    Feb 14, 2003
    Northern Virginia
    I don't think it will be up to us. If we get Adu without using up our allocation, the rest of hte league will cry foul.

    Nellie doesn't have a GC? Hasn't he been here for something like 7 years? I'm just kinda surprised.
  10. eltico

    eltico Member

    Jul 16, 2000
    As much as he's supposed to be the Nats' savior down the road, why the hell do we have to use an allocation on him unless wer'e sure he's gonna play and have an impact?

    If I were Hudson and Payne and I didn't think Adu was going to have much of an impact, and MLS was going to make us trade players to Dallas to get him, I'd raise a proverbial middle finger.
  11. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    That's no longer the case. He's officially on our roster now - hence our cutting of Geddes to make room for him. I think he's gotta be either p-40 or developmental. Otherwise I'm not sure that cutting Geddes would have opened up the roster spot. Geddes was developmental, no? The questions still remains, what's Baumstark's roster classification?

    About the stuff on the Adu allocation, since there aren't any allocation facts as of yet I just listed the most relevant speculation. So don't make more of the Adu allocation speculation than that.
  12. Atouk

    Atouk BigSoccer Supporter

    DC United
    Apr 16, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    Queens Park Rangers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Or is he on our roster now (now that our season is over)? The quotes from the United press release simply talk about him being with us until the end of the season and they called it a "call up" not an acquisition.

    "Baumstark will serve as Doug Warren’s backup for the remainder of the post-season." and "'Clint is a young, solid keeper and he will be utilized for the remainder of the season on our squad,' said United Technical Director Dave Kasper."

    None of that directly says he's ours "for keeps."

    And, yes, Geddes was Developmental (confirmed in that same story) and since we need six P-40/Developmental guys, Baumstark would seemingly have to be, too.
  13. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    Another question on Transitional Internationals. Do they count as part of the senior team? By the looks of it they count neither as the senior team nor as developmental/p-40 players. Is that true?
  14. Atouk

    Atouk BigSoccer Supporter

    DC United
    Apr 16, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    Queens Park Rangers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I believe they count as one of our 18 "senior" (non-P-40/Developmental) players -- the TI tag just stops them from taking up an SI slot.

    Having read the full rules at the "/about/regulations" link, I don't see any reason a TI wouldn't count as one of the 18 senior players, unless they are signed to a Developmental contract (Developmental players can be domestic or international). Developmental players are limited at age 23, however, while TIs go up to 25.

    We're just one over the 18-man "senior" limit because we were allowed to take on Martins in relief of Reyes. Counting TIs, we'd be at 19 senior players and 6 P40/Developmental (counting Baumstark).
  15. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    That's it! It was the Reyes situation that was throwing me off. So we've actually got 19 senior players now because Reyes is on injured reserve. I'll update the first post to indicate that the T-I's count against the senior roster.

    This roster stuff is damn tough to figure out!
  16. Atouk

    Atouk BigSoccer Supporter

    DC United
    Apr 16, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    Queens Park Rangers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Also, 2004 will apparently be the last year Chino can be classified as a TI. If he wants to play in MLS beyond '04, he'd better get that Green Card.

    "Any young international player will count as a Transitional International until the beginning of the year in which they are due to reach the age of 25, at which time they will be re-classified as a Senior International."

    Chino turns 24 on 10/4/04, so he'll turn 25 near the end of, but during, the '05 season.

    Quintanilla was born in early '83, so he won't be an SI until the '08 season.
  17. JoeW

    JoeW New Member

    Apr 19, 2001
    Northern Virginia, USA
    1. My understanding is that Baumstark is a P-40. Whether he is our's now for next year or not, I don't know.

    2. We still have a high spot in the lottery.

    3. I believe that the league rules on discovery's have now been repeatedly changed. For instance: the rules you say you can't trade a discovery slot and I thought that was allowed this year (tho my mind is drawing a blank on the case). Also, the league then added the "special discovery" slot (which is how we were able to get Reyes) where the combined transfer fee and salary couldn't be beyond a certain amount (and league sources have quoted two different figures for the amount).
  18. Sandon Mibut

    Sandon Mibut Member+

    Feb 13, 2001
    As I was driving home, two things kept pissing me off.

    The first was rush hour traffic and no matter how I tried, I couldn't come up with a way to blame that on Ray Hudson or Kevin Payne.

    But the other thing was that we have no draft picks next year and what we have to show for that.

    Now, I could live with trading away our picks if we had built a solid team. But, the current administration has basically mortgaged the team's future for the dysfunctional, inconsistent group we currently call a team.

    For our top three picks we have a washed up forward, a really washed up forward who also ruins chemistry, and a promsing but maddeningly inconsistent and athletically limited midfielder.

    I just thought if you traded away all your picks for veterans, you were supposed to win now. So, where'd the wins go?

    And, why isn't anyone seemingly being held accountable for this?
  19. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    At this point I'm betting you're right. It just seems more reasonable given his situation earlier this year that he'd have a P-40 contract with the league than a developmental contract with the league.
    Lottery? What lottery? Or are saying we've got a reasonably high pick should one arise?
    I remember the trading of discovery slots controversy as well but don't recall the particulars. You got any links for the special discovery stuff?
    I know exactly what you mean. One of the reasons I started this thread was my post in "The Hudson Question" thread where I questioned how on earth Hudson expected to improve the team next year when we'd already exhausted or traded away many of the principle means of acquiring new players. In this thread I wanted to establish exactly what we've got now and determine the possible avenues for improvement.

    But as I see it the only things we have to work with are two discovery slots. Anything else requires a trade and, frankly, we just haven't got that much that's tradeable. Moreover, most of the guys that would get anything in a trade are guys we rely on. And trades don't always work out well ...

    Come to think of it, it's possible (though I think highly unlikely) that we'd end up having to use one of our discovery slots on Adu. Then again, I just can't see MLS doing that with a straight face ... though they did let LA sign Lalas as a discovery player.
    I have this terrible feeling that DC United is going to be worse next year than this year. Indeed, barring unforseen and dramatic roster upheaval I'm pretty sure we will be. But dramatic roster upheavel is a damned risky venture and hardly qualifies as building on past success.

    But more than that I fear we're going to do the stupidest thing possible and re-sign Hudson only to fire him sometime during the 2004 season.

    Then again, maybe I'm missing something. Is that really all we've got in hand right now? Two discovery slots?
  20. Diceson

    Diceson Member

    Dec 21, 1999
    Baumstark was a "30 day Wonder". He is not on DCUnited's roster. He will be in next year's draft. He was in the 2003 draft . . . go figure.
  21. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    Hey "Never Fire the Coach" Diceson - Why'd we drop Geddes then?

    <chucke chuckle> ;)
  22. jason1551

    jason1551 Member+

    Apr 9, 2003
    Columbus, GA
    DC United
    First, I think we have quite a few players with trade value. The question is who are we willing to trade for whatever player we're after. Prideaux, Namoff, Convey, Stewart, and Q1 among others can net some talent if we are willing to part with them in order to improve our team.

    The second thing is that Discovery Picks can be highly useful if you go after the right player. They are valuable in that we can address specific needs and not have to pay an arm and a leg for them. We can look at young foreign talent and pick up players who can help us now and in the future.

    Third, we have an open SI, which is also worth a lot. If we lose Nelsen, we gain an SI spot. If we cut Ivanov, we gain an SI spot. Those are also worth quite a bit in getting valuable international experience. We can address specific needs without limiting our search to young players.

    Fourth, our team isn't in nearly as bad shape as many would belive. Our problem was that we played players out of position and lacked a team mentality. Both can be improved in the offseason.
    The question is whether we have a coach that can formulate a plan on and off the field. That too can be improved.

    Fifth, we still have draft picks and while they are not high, we can still find quality or utility players to help our team. Or we can trade up if we feel the need to. I don't think it's necessary, but we may see a player that we would like to get and pay the price for it.

    I really don't think we are in terrible shape. We may have looked bad towards the end of the season, but you have to remember that we also had a stretch where we were one of the best in the league. That was our team at its best and we know that we are capable of playing at that level. I see no reason why we aren't capable of doing that same type of performance next season.
  23. Daniel le Rouge

    Daniel le Rouge New Member

    Oct 3, 2002
    under a bridge
    Ummm, an Adu lottery? Like there was a Johnny Walker lottery that the Mutts conveniently won, and then even more conveniently, didn't happen? Just a guess.

    Well, there's the potential for two roster spots and $325,000 or so in cap space, assuming Marco and Hristo are ever so gently shown to the front door. There's also the potential for new training facilities, which might just keep the players healthier--certainly in a better frame of mind.

    Or the aforementioned retirement/outright waiver of various and sundry.

    Two words. Johnny Walker. MLS is capable of anything.

    I disagree. I think this team, as currently constituted, could actually be significantly better if it could just stay a little healthier. Better training facilities has got to help with that. Couple that with significant retirements and a few well-placed cuts, and you've got a lot of room to work with.

    Set your mind at rest. Kevin Payne won't do that under any circumstances. He didn't can Arena midseason in '96, he didn't can Rongen midseason in '01, he didn't can Hudson midseason this year. He's not going to do it next year. If he cans him, it's going to be at the end of a contract--either now, or at the end of whatever extension is negotiated.

    Well, no, we do have some flexibility, and you do have to cut SOMEBODY if you're going to bring anyone in at all. In fact, we have to cut somebody NOW. Or rather, whenever the roster limit applies. Yes, no and maybe, in other words. Somebody somewhere has a plan. We can only hope it's the folks in charge, and that it's a good one. Or we're back to square one.

    BUT. We weren't dead last this year.
  24. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    Daniel le Rouge - I know what you're driving at but I also think you missed something of my point. I know there'll be two open roster spots assuming Etch and Hristo leave and that along with those two roster spots there'll be a big wad of cash available to fund two new players.

    But, putting aside all the ad hoc player acquisition mechanisms that MLS does from time to time employ, the only two avenues we've got in hand for acquiring new, significant players are the two discovery slots. And even then it'd be useful to know how much of the transfer fund we've got now (Reyes exhausted it for us for a few years, as I recall).


    Edit: Formatting fix.
  25. Maybe I'm missing something too, but you said at the top of this thread that we had picks in the 4th and 5th round. Ok, they're low picks, but based on the discussions in other threads about the draft, the consensus seems to be that the draft is either

    1. a crapshoot
    2. not a crapshoot, but the positions in the draft are meaningless shite and don't reflect a players real worth

    According to theory #1, if its all a crapshoot anyway, having low picks is no worse than having high ones (assuming the other teams draft high with their first choices)

    According to theory #2, all you need is some good scouts to cunningly draft players of real worth who everyone else was too dumb to pick. Of course, we don't have any such thing, but then again we haven't done too well with high picks, so maybe the off-season would be the time to find said scouts.

    In any event I don't quite share your pessimism about our options. As others have pointed out we have a number of players that we could trade for draft picks, especially in our midfield.

    As to the Adu question, I'm in two minds about it. On the one hand if he is all he is cracked up to be it would be exciting to have him on the team. Looked at another way though, Adu could hurt us more than he could help us, particularly if he takes a while to adjust to the game at this level, or doesn't pan out at all.

    Firstly, it is highly unlikely we would get him without giving up something serious like an allocation. So we lose the chance to get someone who can contribute right away for someone with unproven, though considerable, potential. Secondly, I"m not sure all the hype and hoop-la surrounding Adu is going to help the team rebuild and find its new identity after the departure of Marco. Thirdly, we give up all this for someone who is almost certain to leave within 2-3 years. I'm not sure its worth it, frankly. From Freddies point of view, he would be much better off going to somewhere like Chicago or San Jose where they could ease him into the squad and he would not be expected to carry the whole team on his back like he would be at DC.

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