Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? ^ You guys are being way too harsh on Ronaldo Did u see against Roma ... he created the entire goal that he scored himself and then he had that amazing run from midfield to the goal when he was brought down for the penalty kick Put it this way ... 2006 FIFA Football Player Of The Year = RONALDO
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? I find it difficult 2 buy the out of position and lesser light arguments regarding Gauchos' performances 4 Brazil. A player of his calibre should b able 2 play anywhere even if he has a favourite spot. Not being the main foci and playing with par mates wouldn't affect the psychology of a true competitor. In the games I've seen him play 4 Brazil he doesn't look like he's upset @ not being top honcho...I woulda thought it spreads the burden. Come WC2006 da ante will b upped!
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? Although this was meant to be a R.Gaucho at NT level analysis, it has taken a life of its own with Ronaldo. An unduly harsh view at that. [moose, I wouldn't have to go back more than 6 months to find posts in which you sing his praises....aren't you taking his current form to an extreme?] Forget Ronaldo's pre-two succesive knee surgeries. He will never return to that no matter how much weight he loses. It is about his knees much more than his weight. The fact that he is carrying less weight today than the past two years is undeniable. If it were solely about his weight, he should be a better player now than he was the past two years. At his heaviest - the first year at Real Madrid for the 2002-2003 season - he almost on his own won them the Liga title down the stretch with a run of 6 games or so that saw him score crucial goals on the break (not poaching), by beating defenders on the move. Its easy to forget, but its there in the records. His goal per game tally was around 0.74! Last season (2003-2004) up until the general breakdown at Madrid - which Ronaldo did not rise above - he was scoring at a higher pace than his first year in the Spanish capital. Then the last month and half slump dropped his season average...to a whopping 0.75 goals/game!!! Yes, a clear dip in form did indeed occur in the last month of the 2003-2004, and has continued into the first half of this year...no doubt. Yet, he's slimmer than the prior two years. Its more than weight. Please review his scoring totals http://www.soccer-europe.com/Profiles/Ronaldo.html. CrCruzeiro1412-0.86 GPG PSV4242-1.00 GPG Barcelona373450.92 GPG Inter684990.72 GPG Real Madrid634780.75 GPG Career210172220.82 GPGuzeiro1412-0.86 GPG PSV4242-1.00 GPG Barcelona373450.92 GPG Inter684990.72 GPG Real Madrid634780.75 GPG Career210172220.82 GPG
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? Well, we disagree quite a bit on the timeline of Ronaldo's weight fluctuations. His first season with Madrid I thought he was a little chunky but still in reasonable playing weight. He had some nagging injuries early in the season that slowed him down but by the second half of the season he played very well. The hat-trick at Old Trafford, the brace in the last game of La Liga. I was still with him at that point. For me, the problems really began in his second season at Real. Ronaldo has even admitted the summer of 2003 is when he really let himself go. He maintained an impressive scoring average and finished as the top scorer of the league, but if you watch the games as I do, he was not playing well. He was slow and clumsy with the ball. He took a lot of crap from the media and fans in Spain about his weight, and Zagallo even admitted to being shocked at how bad Ronaldo looked when he reported to the selecao for the Argentina game. My understanding is Zagallo and Parreira appealed to Ronaldo's new girlfriend to talk some sense into him and he finally began training seriously. The Bolivia game was the best Ronaldo had looked in a long time. He played great that game. This is what you're probably remembering as far as me singing his praises. I recall Nicephoras criticized his performance and I snapped at him saying "Ronaldo played great, he is still the best striker in the world" I was very excited after that game, believing Ronaldo was in the process of getting back into ideal shape and poised for a monster year. That is why I am so upset right now. In my opinion, he has fallen back off the wagon and looks as bad as ever. When he was subbed in the Villareal game, the TV showed a shot of him sitting on the bench and the entire bar started laughing. He looked like a linebacker. Let me make one thing clear. At the moment, even as woefully out of shape as I believe he is, Ronaldo is still one of the 2 or 3 best strikers in the world. I would still bet money on him finishing as the top scorer of La Liga. But I have higher standards for him. Since NBA analogies seem to be trendy on these boards, let me try this one. When Michael Jordan was with the Chicago Bulls, he could have shown up for a season in horrible shape, without having trained the entire summer, and he still would have averaged 25ppg and been better than 99% of the players in the NBA, because he is just so much more talented. But you would know you were not getting his best. This is how I feel about Ronaldo right now. As I said in my previous post, I am not looking for 1998 Ronaldo, just give me the WC 2002 Ronaldo. I agree the knee injuries have taken something away, but I still think he is capable of more than he is showing. A friend of mine (an Argentinian no less) once had a great line about Ronaldo. He said the FIFA player of the Year should always thank Ronaldo in his victory speech, because everyone knows if Ronaldo wanted to, he could win the award every year.
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? While I mostly agree with your post, I disagree on two fronts. 1) He is slimmer today than he was 2002-2003. The "El Gordo" nickname was earned in year 1 at Madrid, not last year. This is a matter that can be researched through. [For example here is an article from October 2002, only 2 months post WC '02 and in the first year in Madrid. The weight problem is clearly identified as a major issue... Ronaldo's struggle with a big problem - smh.com.au .....and yet we know he won them the title on the back half of that same year]. Its more than a weight issue. I really believe that he has other personal goings on that have affected his football. To your point, he should be able to compartmentalize the personal and the professional...but we are all human. 2) If you want the WC 2002 Ronaldo, you basically have him now. Ronaldo at the WC played in spurts. He disappeared for whole games (eg. England), and was still shaking off the rust most of the tournament. He showed up at key instances in the games, never a consistent threat until the semis and finals. Intelligence and talent alone carried him to a triumphant return. IMO, he is playing that way today...in spurts, with an odd breakthrough game here and there. I'd rather have the Ronaldo of the last half of 2002-2003 & first half of 2003-2004 (we're obviously talking post-injury Ronaldo). What you may have seen in WC 2002 that you don't seem to see today is overwhelming desire. But how can we be sure? Though I understand your frustration - I share it for the specific period beginning the last month of 2003-2004 and for the first half of this season - its hard to beat on a guy so severely when his goal per game average is 0.75, in one of the supposed 3 best leagues in the world. Ronaldo continues to be the only player today who gets compared to that player that was Ronaldo pre-injury. Although people say they don't do it, subconciously we all do. He really can't win that comparison at this point. I do know that if he shows up healthy at WC 2006, he'll be the Selecao player I'll worry least about [Along with Dida, who is now so damn solid] In an attempt to get back on topic, why hasn't an in-shape and world beating R. Gaucho (at club) been a better player for the Selecao during WCQs than the fat and out of shape Ronaldo?
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? [In an attempt to get back on topic, why hasn't an in-shape and world beating R. Gaucho (at club) been a better player for the Selecao during WCQs than the fat and out of shape Ronaldo? Ronaldo is that good, he's like Shaq(damn NBA analogies ) he can dominate at 50% and still be better then 99% of the strikers out there. At this stage there're only two strikers who're his equal worldwide, and those are Adriano and Sheva.
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? Ok, I think we've reached as close to an understand as we will. My last word on the matter is that I have tapes of all our games from WC2002, and Ronaldo's movements just seemed a lot smoother and more fluid, so I think even by post-injury standards, there is room for improvement physically speaking. As for Ronaldinho, I don't know how much credence people place on this, but I read an article a few days ago that he has been playing with an injured ankle since August. He has talked himself into the lineup several times at the last minute for Barcelona.
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? Interesting. Reviewing the WCQs results and line-ups http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/06/en/t/team/overview.html?team=bra, R.Gaucho has indeed missed his share of games...5 in all. [Click on the scores to see the line-ups and goal scorers.] He's suited up for 6 of the 11 games played in qualifiers so far. In those games he's scored 2 of the 9 Brasil goals, only one of which decided a game (1-0 win over Ecuador). Interesting to note that he was present in all three games in which the Selecao went scoreless (against Peru, Colombia, Ecuador...thus in 50% of his appearances the squad failed to put a score on). That last statistic may say something (or not). Could speak to the compatibility of Kaka and R.Gaucho, vs. a true second striker to partner Ronaldo. Not sure.
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? Everytime I come to the this board I am amazed at the overall quality of the posts here. Imo this is easily the best board on this site. I really should come here more often. The aside betwixt tpmamzembe and moose is a great debate and I'm quite unsure of where I should step in. I can feel a passion in Moose's posts that suggests he is a real Ronaldo fan but one who seems to have lost faith - your reasons for this perplex me...i'll get to that in a moment - but your reasoning is a little unfair and off. You haven't mentioned the dire form a lot of players at Madrid are showing this year or the fact the team is shipping goals so freely at the moment. Ronaldo is human after all and for what you have said if I didn't know any better I'd think Ronaldo wasn't 2nd top scorer in La Liga at this moment in time. 8goals whilst playing badly is not a bad return do you not think? I'll agree with you about his fitness but not about his weight. Visably Ronaldo is slimmer now then he has been for quite some time but his stamina does look suspect. That may well be the result of losing (or trying to) lose too much weight to quickly, which leads to fatigue of the muscles and energy drain. The problem is not his weight. tpmamzembe also mentioned his personal affairs may be the cause and I'm inclined to agree with that. This season is still young and maybe it'd be fairer of you to give him the full period before assessing him so harshly? In parts of your posts I'm inclined to agree with you. Effort doesn't seem to be a priority right now but honestly, in a big game, are you going to be the one to bet against Ronaldo? As I said up top, in the bigger scheme of Team Madrid Ronaldo is by no means their worst performer this season. Look at the guys around him for a startL Raul, Zidane, Beckham, Figo all of them, are playing way below standard and it makes Ronaldo's life tougher yet he still has a return that would be the envy of all those players beneath him in the league. Let me put it this way. If Ronaldo was in the current Barca side would he have scored only 8/liga goals this season? Be honest! He is not performing like we know he can. In fact i'm inclined to agree that there is massive room for improvement. I just don't feel now is the right time to judge him. You seem to see it as tho he is getting chances in abundance and is not converting yet he his conversion rates as tpmamzembe states remain high. Give some thought to what I said about the problems weight loss can cause to the body. Combine that with a distraction (wedding) and a diminished desire at this time and your going to have a player who is deflated in game quite easily. I think the time to criticise Ronaldo will be if he is doing the same things when the big games role around and/or when his team mates actually start to give better performances but right now I find it hard to be overly critical of a player with 8goals in 14 games on a misfiring team. He may very well end up as pichichi, yet again.. ---- As for the topic I think a lot of it comes down to defference at NT level. At Barca Gaucho is the man he can go where he wants take up any position he likes and he controls alot of the play. On the NT He has names around him who have done more than he and he often seems to take the easier way and just pass them the ball instead of making things happen himself. CAP makes him rigid and that is a bad combination. I think unless one or two things change the Selecao wont see the Barca Gaucho in their ranks.
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? As for the topic I think a lot of it comes down to defference at NT level. At Barca Gaucho is the man he can go where he wants take up any position he likes and he controls alot of the play. On the NT He has names around him who have done more than he and he often seems to take the easier way and just pass them the ball instead of making things happen himself. CAP makes him rigid and that is a bad combination. I think unless one or two things change the Selecao wont see the Barca Gaucho in their ranks. Exactly what i said, thus I agree completely All jokes aside I really believe this is a valid reason as to his reticence with the Selecao
Ronaldinho Gaúcho wins FIFA World Player of the Year http://sports.yahoo.com/sow/news;_y...--?slug=reu-fifaplayer&prov=reuters&type=lgns
Re: Ronaldinho Gaúcho wins FIFA World Player of the Year Congradulations to Ronaldinho. I think all three were deserving to win in a very talent group of finalists.
Re: Ronaldinho Gaúcho wins FIFA World Player of the Year Well said. Three fantastic players. Congrats to Dinho and congrats to the runner-ups. However, if either the Ballon D'Or or the FIFA award were based on one complete European season (2003-2004) - rather than a Calendar Year (2004) - I think Henry would have been more deserving than either one.
Re: Ronaldinho Gaúcho wins FIFA World Player of the Year Congratulations to Ronaldinho. He deserved the award. I always enjoyed him play for Barca. His every movement is so breath-taking!
Re: Ronaldinho Gaúcho wins FIFA World Player of the Year All the Brazilians: 2004 1º Ronaldinho (Brasil) 2º Henry (France) 3º Shevchenko (Ucraine) 2003 1º Zidane (France) 2º Henry (France) 3º Ronaldo (Brasil) 2002 1º Ronaldo (Brasil) 2º Kahn (Germany) 3º Zidane (France) 2001 1º Figo (Portugal) 2º Beckham (England) 3º Raúl (Spain) 2000 1º Zidane (France) 2º Figo (Portugal) 3º Rivaldo (Brasil) 1999 1º Rivaldo (Brasil) 2º Beckham (England) 3º Batistuta (Argentina) 1998 1º Zidane (France) 2º Ronaldo (Brasil) 3º Suker (Croatia) 1997 1º Ronaldo (Brasil) 2º Roberto Carlos (Brasil) 3º Bergkamp (Holland)/Zidane (France) 1996 1º Ronaldo (Brasil) 2º Weah (Liberia) 3º Shearer (England) 1995 1º Weah (Liberia) 2º Maldini (Italy) 3º Klinsmann (Germany) 1994 1º Romário (Brasil) 2º Stoitchkov (Bulgaria) 3º Baggio (Itália) 1993 1º Baggio (Italy) 2º Romário (Brasil) 3º Bergkamp (Holland) 1992 1º Van Basten (Holland) 2º Stoitchkov (Bulgaria) 3º Hässler (Germany) 1991 1º Matthäus (Germany) 2º Papin (France) 3º Lineker (England) Brazil: 6 times (Romário, Ronaldo/3, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho), 11 times in the short list France: 3 times (Zidane) Germany/Holland/Liberia/Germany/Italy: 1
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? Not to be rude, but I have to disagree. He's been a Selecao member since 1999, played with the likes of Romario, Ronaldo, and Rivaldo for sometime. I mean I feel as a Brazilian star from being 1st called up in 1999 until now, aside from that England match, where's the magic that we see week in and out at Barca? Isn't 5 years more than enough time to be acclimated with playing around fellow superstars. I'm sorry, but for the Selecao I don't buy into the hype machine he is.
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? Hey, this is the most civilised forum on BS. I don't think it's possible to be rude here It has only been for the past year or so that Gaucho could claim parity with the players you have mentioned. Only since he went to Barca could we really get to see what he was capable of doing with a number of good players around him on a consistent basis. I think that before he joined Barca there was more room for tolerance of his indifferent form for the selecao and many times, he was not seen as a 'go to man' in the team; if something special was going to happen it would almost exclusively come from the boots of one of the others guys you mentioned - and it was what most people expected. Not forgetting Ronaldinho's age and the absolutely stellar players you refer to here is also a factor. It would be easy for him to be in awe of players who had done a whole lot more than him club and country wise. There is no shame whatsoever in deffering to Rivaldo (Often the Selecao's clutch player) Romario - the legend or, Ronaldo the all-time great. Now the question raised in this thread, which I'm sure tpmamzembe will correct me on if I'm wrong, is that compared to what Ronaldinho has been doing at club level, his NT form is subpar, is more obvious and questionable now then it was when Gaucho was at any of his prior clubs. When he was still in Brazil he was a teenager and PSG with all due respect, are not a world beating club - transferring your skills over from a team like Barca where some of your cohorts are on par with what is in the selecao should be a hell of a lot easier to do, logically, should it not? Now that Gaucho has won the POTY...he should be ready to take the mantle up with the NT and not feel he is in the shadow of anyone. I believe this award will put alot more pressure on him to perform, he wasn't 'officially' the world's best player last year, he is now. His game with the selecao will now be under serious scrutiny and tolerance for poorer performances will have a lower threshold. It will be interesting to see if he can shrug off CAP's stranglehold and perform regardless...I don't believe this will happen. I also don't think anything will change with Ronaldinho's performances until CAP has gone.
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? Spot-on, on both counts. Gaucho's imprimatur should be all over the Selecao for the second half of WCQs.
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? It's is probably a mental thing..........he just needs to unwind and let it go and only then will he be able to do what we know he can do![/QUOTE] I will give props to this comment ALL DAY. I truly believe thats all it is. No matter how many accolades he recieves as a player when you look left, right up, or down the field and you see players around you like the Brasilian NT has I think it is fair to say you tend to be a little nervous. I think winning FIFA award will allow him to relax and play his game which will open so many more opportunities in the long run. Nice topic by the way..
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? I think we need to get the time frame correct. When Ronaldinho burst on the scene in 1999, he was brilliant for the Selecao. In the 1999 Copa America he came in as a sub in 4 games and sparkled in everyone. The following month he was the best player of the Confederations' Cup, scoring 6 goals. He was also the best player of the Pre-Olimpico in 2000, scoring 9 goals. Luxemburgo picked a silly fight with him over his weight and left him out of the first few WC qualifiers in 2000 but when Brasil faced a must-win game vs. Argentina, Luxa called Ronaldinho and he was brilliant in that game. And he played very well throughout WC 2002. If you think the England game was his only contribution you are wrong. I have tapes of all the games. Ronaldinho played in 5 games and had an overall excellent World Cup. The issue is that in 2004 he has taken his game to a whole new level with Barcelona and played some of the most incredible soccer anyone has ever seen, yet his form for Brasil has actually declined. This is not a career long problem of not doing anything for his country (Henry, Del Piero). He has already done enough for me to discount the "feeling the weight of the jersey" possibility. P.S.- DerMongerer, I have read many of your comments throughout these boards regarding Player of the Year and we are on the same page. If there was a player who exhibited better form at both Club and International level than Adriano this past year, I would love to meet him.
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? Good point. If he does nothing for Brazil in qualifying but suddenly finds his form, heck even half as good a form as what he's shown for Barça, come World Cup time, he will have arguably the greatest individual World Cup performance ever alongside men like Garrincha, Pelé and Maradona. It is dissapointing to see him not produce in qualifiers, but Parreira will give the team, especially guys like Ronaldinho, more freedom when he has time to prepare them for the World Cup and is confident that everyone know their roles. And I agree as well that he was excellent in 02 besides the England game. Against Belgium he was extremely dangerous and almost scored on a sick dribbling move where he beat three guys in almost no space. Against Germany he created all of our good first half chances save Kleberson's shot off the post. In the second half he started the move that opened up space for Ronaldo's first goal with a very smart header back to another midfielder allowing us to switch sides. Whenever I watch those games again it's amazing just how intelligent and purposeful his every touch is.
Re: Ronaldinho Gaúcho wins FIFA World Player of the Year A proud moment for Brazil. Adriano will be next!
Re: Ronaldinho Gaúcho wins FIFA World Player of the Year The Ballon D'Or might be based on one complete European season but why should a Fifa award be based on such? That discriminates against other football playing continents. Moreover, a season from September to May would disregard international tournaments, which are more important than national leagues. Henry had a subpar 2004 and, therefore, did not deserve to win.