I'm curious if anyone else watched it and what reactions are. I've avoided reading or watching the news pros trying to tell me what I should think about the debate, but would love to hear the reaction of the soccer fan segment of the electorate. My own impresions... First, some moron asks Kerry about the Red Sox, but no one asks Kucinich about MLS expansion into Cleveland....go figure. Then the first 10 minutes of the debate and here and there throughout were taken up by mud slinging at Dean. Nothing substantive that I could see. The confederate flag is a red herring, as is the NRA endorsement. There are too many important things to discuss without delving into that kind of nonsense. The only important thing to come out of those exchanges was to see that Dean shows panic in his eyes when he's attacked. I'm not convinced yet that he has what it takes to go for another whole year with that kind of pressure. My prediction is that he'll have some kind of breakdown before New Hampshire and start openly weeping during speeches ala Ed Muskie. He can't take the stress. Lieberman will retire from the race before March. He has little to offer, and no interesting way to present what little he has. He seemed a vaguely likable looser, like Adalai, up there....."Hey, remember me?....I ran for the executive office once before...remember?" I'm sure he has a lot of money, so I can't imagine why he can't hire anyone smart enough to tell him that if he wants votes he should come up with a few nice ideas that people might want to vote for. I love to hear Sharpton speak. Whenever he says something in those beautiful tones with his wit and poetry, I look around for an offering plate to put some money into. Unfortunatly, when a few moments pass and I try to think of the substance of what he actually said I realize that like most preacher's words, it's just sound and fury. Carol Mosley-Braun. She's a woman. She's a black woman. She's very different from the president and the other candidates in that respect. Otherwise, I'm not sure why anyone would support her. Simalarly, Clark and Edwards are from the south and they're handsome. Edwards is young and handsome and from the south. Clark is handsome, from the south and a former general. Like Mosley-Braun, their policies seem to be a mish-mash of ideas that won't make anyone too angry at them. Both of them seem like the kind that would call a saff meeting and hire a focus group to see if saying "God bless America" were too contoversial. My man Kucinich was inspiring and disappointing again. His ideas are great, which is why I support him. His presentation is awful, and makes me cringe at times. Is it possible to make him look taller? Elevator shoes? A big hairdo...something. He made 5 great points about improving the economy and increasing jobs before he was cut off by the one minute buzzer, and I got the impression he could make 20 or 30 more. Ideas aren't his weak point. When candidates were admitting to smoking canabis or not, he says "No, but I think pot should be de-criminalized," even without prompting. Gotta love that. Then he grabs Sharpton in an awkward embrace and calls him "Mah Brutha...". What a disappointment such blatant pandering is. It's enough to drive a supporter to wild gestures and gnashing of teeth. Kerry seems to be the only serious rival to Dean, and is a better candidate in my opinion. His policies are acceptable if not perfect, and he has a poise and bearing that Dean only seems to have for the first few minutes that you see him. Besides those awful hunting photo's of him flashed on the screen, he had a pretty good debate. But he still fails to distinguish himself. Like about half of the other candidates, he seems afraid to say anything that might make someone upset. He better do or say something to make an impact on the primary voters before too long or he'll lose his chance. Thankfully, Ghephardt didn't show up. After leading the democratic legislature to that terrible defeat in the mid-term elections, he should be run out of the party with a bull-whip. Why would anyone trust him to run anything more important that the Hazzard County Coroner's election after that dismal failure? Finally, these debates really need to include fewer members with more individual time to respond to questions. 4 members on one night, 5 on the other chosen randomly. Something like that.
Dean didn't do himself any favors last night. He'd have been better off going to Iowa to campaign like Gephardt and skipping the debate entirely. I share your analysis of Dean's performance, and your prediction of his obvious coming breakdown. He started off the campaign well, and when he's actually able to articulate his thoughts he's clearly got, on an intellectual and practical level, everything it takes to be president. But he's so "artless", as one pundit said, that it's tough to imagine him scaling those heights. Man, I thought there was nothing likeable about Lieberman last night. He just came off as creepy and out-of-touch, especially compared to the strong performances of Kerry, Edwards, Sharpton and (to a lesser extent) Clark. I think Al's there to moderate. I honestly think that's what he sees himself as, and he serves the purpose well. I'm glad he's up there because he'll bring more young, urban viewers to any show, and that's obviously a demographic the dems have to appeal to. In the end he's doing a service to that community. The one problem is that he's so much more listenable and watchable than the other guys that it highlights the lack of "poetry", or "clinton-ness", on stage. Somehow she reminds me of my mom, even though my mom is polish and arab. Weird, eh? See, I thought they really had different strengths last night. Edwards, tall, handsome and gentlemanly as he is, was clearly the best speaker up there. He's confident and commands a room and while I wasn't there, I imagine that the audience perked up when he was speaking. Sadly he says nothing of substance. He's running for Veep, IMHO. Clark, on the other hand, came off as a man of quiet dignity. He didn't pander and didn't bluster, and unlike most of the other candidates he stated clear policy goals when asked. It's like he knew he wasn't going to be able to match Sharpton's eloquence or the grandstanding of Edwards or Kerry's hometown appeal, so he went down the "talk softly and carry a big stick route." While it impressed me, and his 30 second spot was by far the most impressive, the format, the number of candidates, does him the lest justice and may actually be harmful to his campaign. Kucinich is the high school valedictorian and chess club captain running against the jocks for class president. Deep down you know he has the convictions of his beliefs, you know he cares about each and every person in the room and beyond, you know he's intelligent and dedicated. But how can you vote for someone your kid brother could take in a fight? You just can't. I agree with everything you said about Kerry except for hunting photos being "awful". I really could't care less about them. Amen. That said, if he's the Veep candidate with his labor strength he probably brings in West Virginia and locks up Pennsylvania, Michigan and Illinois. He may even force the GOP to spend time and money in Indiana and Ohio to boot. Ideally Lieberman, Gephardt, Mosley-Braun and Edwards will drop out tomorrow. I'd love to see Dean, Clark and Kerry debate with Sharpton there to call bull*#*#*#*#*# and Kucinich there to ensure issues are brought to the fore, but I don't think that's going to happen.
I actually went down to this, didn't get to see the debate live (watched it on TV at a bar) but had a fun time outside with some other Bush signs--holding up signs as the candidates went into the building, getting threatened physical violence by people that were old enough to know better on several occasions, etc. I'll post a little more about it tonight when I have more time.
The problem with the Dem attacks on Dean over these two things (the confederate flag & gun control) is that primary voters see those two issues as wedge issues, even though Dean's stance is what is needed to win the general election. It does the Democrats no good at all to fight against the Confederate flag or to call for a ban on more firearms. For every primary voter that Kerry picks up with the Dean pro-NRA quip, he loses two general election voters. Somebody high up in the Party needs to tell these guys to just drop the issues entirely. Wanna bet on this? I think Dean is sick of these debates because they no longer allow him to stay on message, since he's become the only target. But he needs them to steel himself for when the real election starts. He doesn't have the weeping gene in him. I agree that it's looking more like Dean vs. Kerry, with Clark still a possibility if he gets his organization out of the total disarray that it's in now. But if Dean holds even half of his big NH lead and steals Iowa from Gephardt, it's over. Dean / Clark '04.
Dean could have ended the whole Confederate flag issue by saying he was wrong about mentioning the flag but stands by his broader message of reaching out to poor Southern voters. I think that answer would have disarmed his critics while still remaining "Presidential". I wish he had done that but it doesn't shake my support for the guy. I'm still planning on attending a Dean/Leahy fundraiser on Saturday night. Murf
Dean-The Rebel flag flap was a non-issue, and although all candidates admitted as much, it did not stop: -Punk-ass Edwards from implicitly stating that Dean's example was intended as embrace of the that flag, or -Reverand Al from exploiting this poor choice of words as an example of Dean's alleged "arrogance." Both Edwards and Sharpton dropped in my eyes. Having said that, I do think Dean needs to learn to relax. Lieberman, please go away. Kerry, why the long face? Kucinich is hysterical. Everytime he gets on a roll, I say "yeah, you go little man!", but then I realize he's just one "Goddess of Peace" from a Saturday Night Live "HardBall" sketch. Clark has an appeal that may be unbeatbale. The guy come across like he actualy likes people. Sadly, this kind of folksiness could turn an election.
Dean's reaction to the criticism about the flag reminds me of why i don't like him: His personality reminds me of Bush, he's too arrogant to admit when he's wrong and too unwilling to accept criticism. Those personality traits are a big part of Bush's failure and I think would be a big part of Dean's failure if he became Prez.
I disagree that Dean should have apologized. I appreciate that he didn't want to bow to political correctness. I'm also disturbed by the implication that southerners who display the Confederate flag are somehow beyond redemption, as though their votes aren't wanted by the Democratic party. I can't blame Dean for what he was trying to say. On the other hand, he entirely failed to get his point across, and he did let the attacks get to him. I worry about this sort of thing, because I think Dean is the real thing, and I think, based on his platform, that he could beat Bush. But unfortunately shooting from the hip and speaking your mind do not win elections. Dean will constantly be caught with his foot in his mouth, or appearing to backtrack, or appearing to be too defensive. Right now he appeals to a lot of frustrated people, but get him up on a stage across from Bush, and he'll look like an arrogant blowhard, lashing out against Mr. Down Home Man of the People. I worry that Dean is not electable.
Dean's point was fine and he shouldn't apologize for that. However, his language sucked and he should apologize for that. Good idea stated badly, what's so hard about saying "I used the wrong symbol and I apologize for that"? There is an arrogance there to not be able to admit you made a mistake. Edwards hit Dean on the head, he comes across as condescending. Much more than Gore did, and that was one of Gore's biggest problems. People don't like for you to talk down to them, Dean does that.
I didn't see the debate and after being enthusiastic about Clark's entry, I have been in a blue funk over his inept campaign and the lack of a real candidate who can beat Bush. But some here say Clark was great and is only getting better on the stump. Is this really true? Thoughts?
I don't understand the objection to Dean saying he wants the white Confederate flag vote. Millions of white Southerners treat the flag as a symbol of heritage, rightly or wrongly. It's an adept and specific description of a demographic. Edwards may be embarrased that the Confederate flag is so prevalent in his state, but that doesn't mean Dean should ignore it.
i didn't see it, but he seemed like he had a quiet night. not showing up in the clipped highlights. it sounds like the night was a big win for Edwards and a big loss for Dean.
Edwards lives in Raleigh. That isn't the real South. Yes, I'm aware of the irony. Dean's problem is that there are so many other guys up there, and every single one of the serious candidates knows they have to knock down Dean to have a chance. He'll do better when the field is down to 3 or 4 real candidates, but will that be too late?
Having grown up in Mississippi, this issue strikes me pretty on a pretty fundamental level. On Martin Luther King day, a local group would buy a large ad in the paper reminding everyone to celebrate Jefferson Davis' birthday. That alone might not be that bad. However, on MLK b'day, you would see a significant increase in the number of confederate flags that were flying and would fly that day alone. Noticing that leaves a mark. It is true that millions of Southerners view it as a symbol of heritage. It's also true that millions of black people see it as a view of the 1960s and the lynchings that occurred during the period (which by the way, is when every southern state that flew the Confederate flag--except MS--started flying it). The Confederate flag is a symbol of the Republican's southern strategy. It is a mistake to elevate it as Dean did. Further, it is stereotypical to describe poor whites as people that drive pickups and fly confederate flags. It might have some basis in truth, as most stereotypes do, but it is unfair to broadly describe a group in that way. Many more people in the South have an American flag on their car now than have a Confederate flag. It was a mistake to use a symbol of division rather than a symbol of unity. Dean should have just said, I want to get the vote of the stupid rednecks that chew Skole, have gun racks on their car, have 5 cars in their yard that don't work, and have been fooled by Republicans into voting against their interests. I do think that Republicans have used the politics of separation in the south to get poor whites to generally vote Republican. However, there are core values on which they are with Republicans, especially the role of religion in society. That really does matter and rather than be tricked, poor whites have voted on those issues. Dems need to reach out to those voters, but have to emphasize economics and understanding of their culture. Dean doesn't get it and his comment proved it. If he had made an equivalent stereotypical statement about blacks--we need to get the voters that eat fried chicken and watermelon out to the polls--he would have been correctly called out for being drastically insensitive and unfair in his view of groups. His message was correct, Dems do need to reach out further, but his symoblism and stereotyping were wrong and offensive.
I think Dean actually benefits from the crowded field, because he's one of the loudest voices. All the attacks are probably harmful, but they actually raise his profile in a certain way. I have no doubt that he's capable of winning the primary, despite the other Democrats licking their chops, eyeing a strong chance at beating Bush. But if he does win, that's when the real problems start. Because the Bush camp will be a hundred times more vicious and relentless.
This is why I want Clark or Kerry to get the nomination, or perhaps run together. I'd love to see the mudslinging considering Clark and Kerry are REAL vets. Bush's preferential assignment to the Air National Guard and his pathetic attendance record will come up full force this time, since he's got us in a conflict overseas. I think a lot of America is superficial, and therefore Clark's posture and small stature may hurt him. He's also pretty softspoken. He was in my chain of command twice when I was in the Army, and my only recollection of him is that he was genuine (the rare kind of general who seemed interested in what enlisted folks had to say, and he also liked to go to the field with his men as opposed to stay in garrison like lots of flag officers). Carol Moseley-Braun seemed very wise, and definitely has the politico experience, but I think she'll wind up a VP at best. Might make an interesting Sec'y of State in the new regime. The question about baseball was not idiotic, it was an analogy for how Kerry would handle a similar situation as president (ie, you're the boss, but one of your employees, say the Attorney General, is out of control and/or doing a bad job. Do you step in, or trust the guy you hired to right the ship himself?). However, this analogy went completely over Kerry's pointy head, and the guy who asked the question looked kind of disappointed when they showed him. Sharpton looked and sounded wise, with lots of rosy rhetoric. But I'm not sure I want a man of the cloth as President. The J-A-P from Brown who asked "Mac or PC?" should've been dragged out by her hair. The "have you used drugs?" question was answered as follows: Kucinich--no ("but I'm for decriminalization!"), Sharpton--no ("religious reasons"), Kerry--yes, Clark--no, Edwards--yes, Braun--"I refuse to answer", and Dean--yes. No questions were asked about affirmative action, church and state, or Ann Coulter.
It was a damn good time. I went with a group of around 12 Bush supporters from BC, we got down to Fanueil Hall around 6 and met up with other college Republicans from all over Boston. Mostly from BU, but also Tufts, MIT, Emerson, Suffolk, and I'm sure a few others (no-one from Harvard that I know of, altho our signs had been painted there). All in all, there were about 30 of us, and we were the largest group of Bush supporters that I saw. All the local Boston TV stations were there covering it, as well as a number of national ones. Anyway, we took our spots near the path the candidates were using to get into the hall--getting yelled and hissed at by the hundreds of Democrats there, but we were proud to be representing. Several people, most of whom were over the age of 60 and seemed to be under some sort of chemical influence, threatened us physically, but we had enough class to brush them off. My neck is sore as hell today from letting some chick from Suffolk sit up on my shoulders so our Bush signs could be seen over the rows of Dems in front of us (if any of you were there and saw a guy in a black sweater holding up an Asian chick in a light blue jacket, that was me). Most of the Dems there were Kerry and Dean supporters, but there were also a few for Clark and Edwards (Edwards' supporters have apparently spent all their time coming up with clever chants instead of fundraising), a surprisingly large number for Kucinich, and even a few Sharpton signs. There was also this guy, drunk off his ass, ranting on something about "God save King George!" and accusing Bush of trying to help the Soviet Union re-form itself: Afterwards, we went to some bar where they weren't carding, and watched the debate there in a downstairs lounge. Here I made 3 extremely unwise decisions: 1.Spending $65 on alcohol (4 Guinnesses for myself followed by a round of Irish car bombs for whoever was still aroud at that point); 2.Admitting to a hot grad student from Suffolk, who up to this point had been all over me, that I was a sophomore; 3.Hooking up with a somewhat less-than-attractive chick. All in all, tho, a fun evening and a great experience.
I agree with this, actually. If (for example) Kerry, Edwards and Lieberman were to drop out tomorrow, I think it would disadvantage Dean relative to Gep and Clark. I'm hoping Dean doesn't get the nomination, despite his being the clear front runner at this point. My sense is that in the general election, he'll be at best a mediocre presidential candidate, and quite possibly a terrible one.
What? They didn't cage you into a free speech zone half a mile from the action? How thoghtless of them.
Acutally Alex sounds like a good night. Guinness is the only thing i'll drink, and hey, you almost nailed a grad student.
It was, aside from the fact that I emptied out half my bank account on booze (good beer at a fancy bar costs a lot of money, apparently). By comparison, I usually don't spend that much in a month on beer...Guinness rocks tho, ever have an Irish Car Bomb? (Fill up a pint glass about 2/3 of the way with Guinness, get a double shot glass, fill that up halfway with Bailey's and halfway with Jamison's, drop the shotglass into the pint glass and chug it.) "Almost" nailed a grad student, yes...and were it not for the fact that I am completely incapable of coming up with a good lie on the spot, the deal would've been sealed...ah well, at least my beer goggles allowed me to make some other chick's night.
Such is sophomore life, yes? It ain't being so kind to me right now either. I'll try a car bomb sometime...sounds like a real kick in the shorts.