Robert Cullen - Northern Ireland Eligible?

Discussion in 'Other Countries' started by nordirland, Sep 27, 2011.

  1. GreenAndWhiteArmy

    GreenAndWhiteArmy New Member

    Oct 3, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    Northern Ireland
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    The above is all very interesting, I'm sure, and some day when I have time, I might even be inclined to discuss it further. (Don't hold your breath)

    But regarding the specific topic in hand, it really is quite simple. It has been an established FIFA principle for decades now that a player may represent the country of his parent's birth, providing he is not already tied to another National Team, and he holds the appropriate Nationality.

    Cullen's father is from Northern Ireland.

    He is not tied to Japan, since he has not played a competitive "A" International.

    Therefore the only question is whether at the time of his first having represented Japan at under-age level, he held British Nationality (and continues to hold it).

    Regarding this last, neither the Japanese Government nor the JFA may determine who is, or is not, British: only the British Government may do so.

    And as I have demonstrated, by the relevant 1981 legislation, Cullen undoubtedly was a British National automatically from the time of his birth.

    Further, the 1981 Act makes clear that any such British National remains so, unless or until he formally renounces that Nationality with the British (not Japanese, or any other) Government. Such a Renunciation must be Registered with the appropriate (British) Secretary of State.

    Therefore, if Cullen has at some stage registered his renunciation with the British Government, he may no longer be eligible to represent Northern Ireland - it would depend on the date/timing.

    And if he has never registered such a renunciation, then regardless of any effect it may have upon his Japanese Nationality etc, he has continued to hold British Nationality from birth, so may choose to represent the Northern Ireland NT (if selected).

    That is my understanding, but I am not so arrogant as not to be open to correction.

    Therefore if you still disagree with me, I would appreciate if you told me which part of my reasoning (above) you consider to be incorrect. And in doing so, I would appreciate if you stuck to the specifics of my post.

    Back to you.
  2. GreenAndWhiteArmy

    GreenAndWhiteArmy New Member

    Oct 3, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    Northern Ireland
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    Such a declaration may satisfy the Japanese Government when it comes to granting Japanese Nationality etc, but as I have pointed out in my previous posts, it has no bearing whatever on a person's British Nationality.

    Only the British Government may determine who has, or has not, their Nationality.

    Needless repetition.

    Down the years, countless players have changed their mind as to which international football team they wish to represent and have been accommodated (so long as they comply with the relevant FIFA Articles etc.)
    Therefore what a player says he wants/doesn't want is irrelevant, it is what he is which counts.
    Consequently, a declaration made by a 20 year old may "pop up", but it can have no bearing on his subsequent eligibility or entitlement to switch Associations.

    Repeating something over and over does not make it so.

    No, I do not need to - at least until you address directly my reasoning why I think Cullen may still be eligible to represent NI.

    Congratulations on achieving your Naturalisation. It must have been difficult for you, since every Japanese person I have ever met has been unfailingly charming and polite.
    Perhaps you were "the Exception which proves the Rule"?

    You misrepresent my "case" (see post #48), perhaps wilfully?

    That is not a "fact", "stone-solid" or otherwise, it is your opinion.

    I hold a different opinion.

    AKITOD Member+

    Apr 5, 2007
    Hobart, Aust
    JEF United Ichihara
    Nat'l Team:
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    With Cullen (sorry to intrude on the discussion), and other nationals, as I understand is this:

    As Matsu said, Japan does not reconize duel-nationals. Now you are correct when you say that someone that renounces citizenship must do so through the British government, but what the Japanese government can (and does) do, is take away your Japanese citizenship if you prove to have two and are unwilling to give up the other.

    So I think his point is, is that given Cullen still has Japanese citizenship, it means he can't currently hold British citizenship. Because if he did, the Japanese government would have forced him to give up Japanese citizenship when he was younger. So he has (or illegally hasn't, which is a whole new kettle of fish) renounced his British citizenship.

    So I think the remaining path to get Cullen to play for N.Ireland is through naturalization.
  4. nsato

    nsato Member

    Oct 11, 2009
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    Akitod, you need to read both their posts again!

    Matsu is saying according to FIFA, Cullen can't play for NI even if he does naturalize because he didn't have British citizenship the moment he played for Japan. He is also saying that he couldn't have had British Citizenship even with the 1981 Act because of the document attached to your koseki.

    ...but from what I understand from GreenAndWhiteArmy's posts about the 1981 Act, Cullen is a British citizen for life regardless of what he says or Japanese Government says or what it says on the document unless the British Government renounces it. Either Cullen, Japanese Gov't, or whoever has to tell the British Gov't to renounce it AND ONLY WHEN THE BRITISH GOV'T REGISTERS TO RENOUNCE IT, will Cullen no longer be a British citizen. I think the point GreenAndWhiteArmy is trying to make is that no one knows if the British Gov't really did renounce it.
  5. Matsu

    Matsu Member

    Mar 28, 2001
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    No, Akitod is saying just what I am saying.
    Governments are not clueless. They have actual adults in charge, who do their jobs carefully and dont make mistakes. When a person renounces his citizenship in Japan, you can be pretty damn sure that the Japanese immigration authorities are going to at least mention it to somebody in the UK. I even went so far as to confirm this with a call to the British embassy. Perhaps I am being too generous in assuming the logical processing capability of the people on the other end of this discussion, but I thought that went without mentioning that when a person renounces their citizenship, it means that they RENOUNCE THEIR CITIZENSHIP.

    However, the whole discussion above has been a waste of everyone's time because it is now pretty apparent that these guys from N.Ireland are just jerking somebody's chain. That is pretty obvious after this comment:

    Oops. You just gave your game away my friend. Anyone who has supported Japan for any length of time knows darn well that that is not true. Prior to around 1990 NOBODY had ever played for the NT of more than one country. Following the breakup of Yugoslavia and the USSR, the rules were changed to ease the way for people who had played for a country that no longer existed, but when it was apparent that some countries were trying to cheat, FIFA started to crack down on the practice and they have disqualified NUMEROUS countries in recent years for fielding ineligible players (=anyone who had played for another country previously). It was only in 2009 that they relaxed the rules once again, and took their current form. However, even that relaxation makes it very clear that there are specific limitations on the cases where a player can play for two different countries in the course of his career. The rules were written SPECIFICALLY to keep such cases to a minimum. That was the INTENT of the rule change, and yet here you are, still trying to argue that FIFA is trying to set up a system where any country can just go out and pay top players a few million dollars to change their citizenship and create a World Cup team.

    That is not the case. FIFA's intent is exactly the OPPOSITE of that. If you had bothered to do what I told you at the very beginning, and Googled "Marcio Emerson Passos", you would see a specific example of exactly what FIFA is trying to prevent, and what they do to players who break the rules.

    For some reason you seem to want to confuse the discussion of citizenship and naturalization with the question of whether a player is eligible to play for a national team of a given country. I know darn well WHY you are doing this, but i am not fooled for a second. They are two completely separate issues, and your deliberate effort to confuse the two just shows how lame your argument really is.

    Changing nationalities is not that difficult. But FIFA does not want players to play for one country and then change nationalities play for another country. That is the issue we are discussing here. Not whether or not you can become a British citizen based on parentage or whether your formal written renunciation of British citizenship is registered in the UK at the same time it is in Japan (and FYI: effective from 2007 , it is, according to Ms. Adele Harrison at the UK embassy in Tokyo, who I phoned earlier today).

    The issue of citizenship is neither here nor there. We are talking about FIFA eligibility. And FIFA does NOT like players to switch confederations unless they have a very clear reason for having moved to a new country while still very young, and wanting to represent that new country. After the age of 20, your chances of changing confederations are virtually zero. That is well known, and I can dig up hundreds of other stories like This one discussing players who had to choose which team they would represent because they knew they can only choose one. Marcio Emerson Passos was banned as a player for life, and spent three months in jail in Brazil for fraud, due to his effort to fool the system . . . and that was based on him playing ONE match for an U-17 TEAM!!!!!!

    Robert Cullen has played almost 50 matches for Japan at the U-16, U-17 U-20 and U-23 levels. Those include the U20 World Cup and the Athens Olympics. If FIFA was prepared to ban a player for life, and cooperate in a fraud investigation in Brazil, based on ONE U-17 match, what do you think their stance would be ???

    Oh and one more thing:

    Obviously, a man who has never visited 2Ch. :rolleyes:
  6. nsato

    nsato Member

    Oct 11, 2009
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    Oh ok. So it's possible then....
    Apologies if I misunderstood you Akitod.

    You and i both know thats not true...and thats not bashing the gov't.

    hmm...I guess he isn't eligible then!!

    Second edit: Sorry i keep editing and am all over the place...
    To be fair to myself, it was effective from 2007!!
  7. Matsu

    Matsu Member

    Mar 28, 2001
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    No, my friend, it is not my opinion. It is a fact.
    It is a fact that I have confirmed both through examination of the specific regulations imposed by FIFA, and by making phone calls to confirm points that may not have been 100% certain. That is what a responsible person does when they want to make sure they arent talking out of their rectum, and spreading false information. A responsible person makes sure they find out the facts before they start trying to tell other people the facts

    Unlike most of the fanboy poseurs who visit this website, I dont claim that something is a fact unless I know it to be a fact. And the reason why I am often abrasive when posting on this site is that I get infuriated by the people who go around talking smack about things that they not only cant confirm, but havent even bothered to TRY to confirm. That is irresponsible behaviour and it often has very unhappy consequences.

    So when some idiot writes a story in the UK news about how Liverpool and Chelsea are battling to sign Shinji Kagawa, even though I know for a fact that neither of those teams has even CONTACTED Kagawa's agent, much less made inquiries about him to Dortmund, it really cheeses me off. I spend unnecessary hours of my time trying to ensure that stories like that are exposed as poppycock as soon as conceivably possible, and I really do not enjoy the activity.

    Your insistence that Cullen is eligible to play for N.Ireland may not be as "public" as the news story about Kagawa, but it is the same principle, and as I said way back on page 2, the only reason I bothered to take this discussion any further was that I want to make sure no Japan fans are fooled into thinking you might be right.

    As for what you want to believe, I really dont care. You can delude yourself all you like. But you cant change the facts.
  8. Matsu

    Matsu Member

    Mar 28, 2001
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    No worries. I just get really angry when people who dont know anything try to make up stories that simply arent true, and then refuse to admit it when confronted with the facts.

    Anyway, I think the reason why a formal process was instituted in 2007 was that some people were naturalizing in Japan, keeping their original passport, and then "changing back" a few years later. There are various reasons why they might do this, such as getting cheap medical treatment in Japan and then going "home" before they had to start paying taxes to PAY for the insurance they benefitted from, or even (in one case) committing murder and then running back to Brazil to avoid the law. In any event, Japan tightened their laws and communication with foreign embassies in 2007. But IN PRINCIPLE it has always been the case that when a person naturalizes, they lose their citizenship in their original country.
  9. bm2011

    bm2011 New Member

    Mar 8, 2011
    Manchester City FC
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    wow... Are you guys some kind of ambassador or lawyers? What a bunch of pros :D
  10. GreenAndWhiteArmy

    GreenAndWhiteArmy New Member

    Oct 3, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    Northern Ireland
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    No need to apologise - "the more the merrier"!


    Thank You.

    No doubt.
    But my point is that Cullen does not need Japanese citizenship to represent NI (obviously!); rather he needs to have British citizenship (and have had it at the time he first represented Japan's under-age teams).

    I'm sorry, but that does not follow.
    Under British law, if he omitted to register his renunciation of his British nationality with the British Government, he remains British from birth.
    And such an omission may invalidate his Japanese Nationality, but it would not invalidate his British Nationality.

    (If I may rephrase your comment: "Assuming Cullen still wants Japanese citizenship, it means he should not simultaneously hold British citizenship")

    At the time he obtained his majority, he was required to lodge a statement with the Japanese Government (Court?) renouncing all other Nationalities. I have no doubt that he did so sincerely, and assume that at the time, that was sufficient for the Japanese Authorities.

    Of course, if he were now to push a case for representing NI, any previous failure to renounce his British Nationality would almost certainly cause the Japanese authorities to revoke his Japanese citizenship.

    That would be a major step and I would quite understand if Cullen were unwilling to make that (major) sacrifice for the sake of some caps for the Northern Ireland NT!
    (As against that, having British Nationality would greatly strengthen his ability to live and work in the European Union, if that were something which appealed to him?)

    Sorry to repeat myself, but as I understand it, British Nationality is governed by British Law.
    Therefore the only way one may renounce ones British Nationality is by registering such a renunciation with the British Government.

    Do you mean become a naturalized Briton?
    If so, he should not need to do so - his father being British is quite sufficient to accord Cullen British nationality from birth.
  11. GreenAndWhiteArmy

    GreenAndWhiteArmy New Member

    Oct 3, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    Northern Ireland
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    Exactly! (bold)
  12. nsato

    nsato Member

    Oct 11, 2009
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    Now I am genuinely confused. I was being sacastic when I wrote that but from your reply, it seems this is correct? I thought it was impossible even if he does naturalize(or regain British citizenship).
  13. GreenAndWhiteArmy

    GreenAndWhiteArmy New Member

    Oct 3, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    Northern Ireland
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    Only if it is done under the correct procedure and with the correct authorities etc.
    Neither of us knows whether that is the case with Cullen.

    If you are going to start giving History lessons, you would be advised first to acquaint yourself with some basic facts.
    Here is a list of players who have played for the NT of more than one country:
    (For that Link to work, you need to replace the Green Smilie with a colon : followed by a capital D)

    As you will see, the number is into three figures, with some of the names predating even the foundation of FIFA.
    Moreover, some of those players listed have actually represented three international countries, including such all-time greats as Laszlo Kubala, Jose Altafini and (the incomparable) Alfredo Di Stefano.
    And that list only refers to players who have played for 2 or more NT's at senior "A" international level.
    I don't know how many players have played for the under-age teams of one country, then played for the Senior "A" team of another, as would be the case with Cullen, but I suspect the list may run closer to four figures!

    As for the rest of your rant, FIFA's Rules and Procedures re Eligibility have always permitted certain players to represent more than one NT. Over the course of the years, sometimes they (R & P's) have become more restrictive, sometimes they have been loosened.

    I am trying to interpret the Eligibility R & P's in 2011, as they apply to players in Cullen's situation.

    (Oh and by the way, Northern Ireland is not Qatar, we don't have the money to "buy" a World Cup team, and even if we did, I suspect we would try to attract rather better players than - no offence - Robert Cullen! ;) )

    Marcio Emerson Passos attempted to cheat the system by falsifying a legal document - hence his punishment by the Brazilian Criminal Courts. No-one is suggesting that Robert Cullen should attempt anything of the sort.
    Nor is anyone suggesting that Cullen should attempt to break FIFA's Rules in any other way. On the contrary, I am attempting to demonstrate how/why he may comply with them.

    Just because (footballing) Eligibility is not identical to (constitutional/legal) Nationality, does not mean they are not related.
    In order for a footballer to play for any NT, he must first demonstrate that he complies with FIFA's Eligibility Rules & Procedures.
    Then he must demonstrate that he holds the appropriate Nationality.
    Therefore unless Cullen formally registered his renounciation of his British Nationality with the British Government, at or before the time he first played for one of Japan's under-age teams, it is my opinion that he should be eligible to play for NI (should he and the IFA wish).

    It is simply not true to claim that "FIFA does not want players to play for one country and then change nationalities play for another country" - otherwise why would they have permitted so many players to do exactly that?
    What you really mean (or should mean) is that FIFA does not want players to play for one NT and then change nationalities to play for another entirely without restriction.
    Therefore the question here is whether the present restrictions prohibit Cullen from switching from Japan to NI.
    I hope by now you can deduce my answer to that question...

    P.S. Did Ms. Harrison have anything to say about the procedures in force prior to 2007? ;)

    How can you make such a claim when your whole case is predicated on your assertion that Cullen cannot have held British citizenship at the time he first played for Japan's under-age teams?

    And as I have already clearly demonstrated, FIFA's eligibility rules contain clear provisions re "citizenship" (I think you really mean Nationality) - see Regulations 5, 7 & 8, below:
    In other words, Dual Nationality is an entirely "clear" (adequate) reason why players may switch, so long as they comply with all the other eligibility criteria.

    Utter nonsense (bold).
    In the past three years, a number of players past their 20th Birthday have switched from the Irish Football Association (NI) to the Football Association of Ireland (ROI) alone - try googling "James McClean", for instance.
    Many more have switched eg from the French Football Federation to various African Associations, even before the 2009 Rule Change - try googling "Freddie Kanoute", for instance.
    And such switches will have been effected in other parts of the world, not just Europe/Africa, since the same Rules apply globally.

    I have already stated why I consider the Passos case (Fraud) is different to that of Cullen (absence of Fraud).

    I have no doubt they would treat any application by Cullen on its individual merits.
  14. GreenAndWhiteArmy

    GreenAndWhiteArmy New Member

    Oct 3, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    Northern Ireland
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]


    How about this one from post #52: "Prior to around 1990 NOBODY had ever played for the NT of more than one country"

  15. GreenAndWhiteArmy

    GreenAndWhiteArmy New Member

    Oct 3, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    Northern Ireland
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    You might have ended that sentence after the fifth word...

    All very interesting, I'm sure, but we both know that the relevant question applicable to Cullen was whether he still held British Nationality when he first represented a Japanese under-age team.
    Therefore if the Japanese State authorities tightened up their vetting procedures with their British counterparts in 2007, we may assume that they were not so rigourous prior to that.
    Therefore it must be entirely possible (though not certain) that the Japanese authorities did NOT require Cullen to register formally with the British Secretary of State his renunciation of his British nationality at the time of his attaining his majority (2005), never mind before he first represented Japan at football (2000?)

    If or when FIFA should ever have to consider an application by Cullen to switch, they will study the actuality of the case (i.e. what "is"), rather than the hypothetical (i.e. what "ought" to have been).
  16. Matsu

    Matsu Member

    Mar 28, 2001
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    It is impossible for Cullen to play for anyone except Japan. We have resolved that. Green&White's posts have now become the sound of one hand clapping. Anyone who doubts that should look at the post above and ask themselves "Why is he still ("apparently") in the dark, when anyone following this discussion should be aware that 2007 comes before 2008".

    I think its clear now that we were all played by a deliberate fishing expedition (Join Date: Oct 2011). Im sorry for taking the bait. Lets move on
  17. dokool

    dokool Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 11, 2006
    Tokyo, Japan
    FC Tokyo
    Nat'l Team:
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    Your friendly neighborhood moderator here!

    Guys, this is a fascinating discussion and I'd prefer to not have to prune any of it, but please keep it civil and respectful at all times.

    Thank you!
  18. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    New York City FC
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    FIFA announced that there will be no more age limit to those players who want to switch their National allegiance, as long as they have not played for the senior National team.

    It's funny you say they debate every word, but there was an ambiguity in the rules prior to 2009 which lead to massive debates about whether Freddy Adu was eligible to switch to Ghana after representing the US in youth tournaments. Turns out he was eligible and the wording by Fifa was in error.
  19. GreenAndWhiteArmy

    GreenAndWhiteArmy New Member

    Oct 3, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    Northern Ireland
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    "We" (i.e. you) have not "resolved" anything.

    Rather you have expressed your opinion that Cullen is not eligible, which is something rather different.

    Blah, blah, blah.
    Haven't you realised by now that you can bluster, insult, side-track and bluff all you like and it will not intimidate or deter me?

    Anyhow, out of deference to 'dokool' (above), I shall resist the temptation to respond in kind, and instead lay out my reasoning as clearly as I may, to demonstrate why I feel Cullen is almost certainly eligible to represent NI, should he (and they) choose.

    1) The basic principle of International Eligibility is to be found in FIFA Article # 5, as follows:
    "Any person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence in a certain country is eligible to play for the representative teams of the Association of that country."
    Quite obviously Cullen has Japanese Nationality which complies with that Principle.

    2) However, as I pointed out in my post #42, it is quite clear from the British Nationality Act 1981 that at the point of his birth, Cullen was/is a British National and that such nationality is both "permanent" and "not dependent on residence etc" in the manner required by FIFA.
    Therefore Cullen must be considered as a Dual Japanese/British National, whether or not he and/or the Japanese authorities recognise that, since only the British Authorities may confer or withdraw British Nationality.
    (Or to put it another way, the Japanese authorities can no more withdraw or invalidate a person's British nationality than the British authorities can withdraw or invalidate his/her Japanese nationality).

    3) It is quite clear that in the context of footballing eligibility, FIFA recognises this concept of Dual Nationality, as outlined in their Article # 8 (Change of Association):
    "If a Player has more than one nationality... ... he may, once only, request to change the Association for which he is eligible to play international matches to the Association of another country of which he holds nationality...".

    This explains why, during over a century, literally hundreds (thousands?) of players have played for two different NT's (in a few cases for 3!), as I proved in my post #60.

    4) As outlined in FIFA Article #8 (above), switching Associations is, however, subject to three qualifications:
    (i) Since 2009, a player may now switch Associations only once.
    This would not be a barrier to Cullen, since he has only ever represented the JFA to date.
    (ii) A player must not have "played a match (either in full or in part) in an official competition at 'A' international level for his current Association".
    This does not apply to Cullen, either.
    (iii) "... and at the time of his first full or partial appearance in an international match in an official competition for his current Association, he already had the nationality of the representative team for which he wishes to play.".

    5) Re. this last qualification, as I explicitly pointed out in my post #42, under British Law the only way Cullen may legally effect a termination of his British nationality from birth is if he specifically renounces it to the British Government, and they formally register that renunciation.

    You have already pointed out in your post #52 that Cullen "... has played almost 50 matches for Japan at the U-16, U-17 U-20 and U-23 levels. Those include the U20 World Cup and the Athens Olympics.".

    Therefore even if none of those U-16 or U-17 games were in official competition, the U-20 World Cup undoubtedly was.

    Consequently, unless Cullen specifically renounced his British nationality before his first U-20 World Cup appearance, he MUST at that time still have retained "... the nationality of the representative team [NI] for which he wishes to play".

    How likely is it that the teenaged Cullen (or the JFA) will have thought to contact the British Government to formally renounce his British nationality before he first lined out for a Japanese national under-age team in competition?

    I would guess that it is EXTREMELY unlikely, since at that stage, we know he hadn't the slightest inclination of ever representing NI. Therefore the issue will never have arisen.

    In fact, almost certainly the first time Cullen might have had cause to consider renouncing his British-from-birth nationality will have been at the time he reached his majority, and sought to have his Japanese nationality confirmed. Cullen was born in 1985, therefore this process will have been in 2005.

    As I pointed out above, he almost certainly represented Japan in an official (under-age) competition before 2005 (therefore must be eligible now for NI).

    But for the sake of argument, let us assume that he had not yet played in such a competition by then. As you yourself have revealed (your post #46), as a basic principle, in order to confirm his Japanese nationality, the applicant must sign a declaration in his koseki which renounces all other nationalities. But while this may have satisfied the Japanese authorities at the time, it will not in itself have had any legal effect with the British Authorities.

    And from what you have posted (#52), the Japanese Authorities did not begin to require applicants for Japanese nationality to formally renounce with the British Embassy in Japan any British nationality which they also held, until 2007.

    And as you know, 2007 is two years after 2005 - the year in which Cullen will have had his Japanese nationality confirmed.

    This is why I feel it most likely that Cullen is entitled still to switch to the Irish Football Association and play for NI, should he wish.

    All of which means you now have a choice, Matsu:
    (A ) You may accept my above reasoning; or
    (B ) You may address my reasoning and refute/disprove it; or
    (C ) You may decline to address it, and respond instead with one of your usual rants.

    Back to you, Matsu. ;)
  20. Matsu

    Matsu Member

    Mar 28, 2001
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    For Christs sake, are you still at it?
    I cant believe you havent been banned, as socks who deliberately are created to troll for responses are NOT ALLOWED UNDER BIGSOCCER TOS. But I wont bother provoking the Mods who obviously have their own agendas.

    - Cullen played for Japan in April 2008. That is at least a year after his British passport would have HAD to be revoked, based on the policies of the UK government and British Embassy in Japan. I confirmed this FACT with the British Embassy in Tokyo. If you wish to do so yourself, you may contact them at (+81) (3) 5211-1100

    - FIFA regulations state, and I quote:
    "Players who have not played an 'A' international match for their country, meaning a match in a competitive international tournament such as the Asian Cup, World Cup, or World Cup qualifying - and excluding friendlies - are eligible to switch to any federation of a country for which they held citizenship at the time they played for a youth team of the original country.

    -Cullen did not hold citizenship in the UK at the time he played for a youth team of the original country (=Japan)

    - Cullen does not CURRENTLY hold citizenship in the UK

    Even that last point alone is enough to make it impossible for Cullen to play for Northern Ireland (unless he goes through naturalization procedures first), and the other points make it irrelevant for him to go through naturalization, since it would NOT make him eligible to play for a team that he did NOT hold citizenship for, at the time he played for Japan.

    I wrote this identical comment way back on PAGE 2 of this thread. Here you are still trying to troll for responses. Oh, dont miisunderstand, I do realise what your purpose here is, and you a re doing it quite well. But at this point I really dont give a ******** whether BigSoccer gives me a card for what I say in response to you. Their failure to delete your profile proves where their priorities lie, and being banned from a place that exercises such obvious double standards would - for me at least - be a source of pride, not shame.

    SO if you want to CONTINUE arguing a point that was resolved beyond any reasonable doubt all the way back on page 2, knock yourself out.

    However - Mods be warned - if this same troll is permitted to post the SAME crap on the SAME thread one more time, I will view it as an indication that BigSoccer does not respect its own TOS, and also as an invitation to state in unexpurgated detail what I think of self-infatuated preening provocateurs like Green&White Army
  21. Matsu

    Matsu Member

    Mar 28, 2001
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    Mr. Junji Ogura, who took part in the discussions which implemented the new rule, stated at a press conference that I attended, in 2009: "The discussions were very detailed. We had to debate over every single word" (the original Japanese was "moji-goto ni", or literally, "every single letter of each word")

    If you have a direct quote from someone else who was there, which contradicts Mr. Ogura's comment, I will take it as an indication that perhaps my comment might possibly be inaccurate. However, since my comment is essentially a direct restatement of a quote from someone who personally took part in the discussions, I suspect that I am on solid ground with that statement.
  22. Matsu

    Matsu Member

    Mar 28, 2001
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    Nothing can deter a determined troll. But trying to invent dimension-altering scenarios under which it MIGHT be POSSIBLE that MAYBE, PERHAPS Cullen did not do what he was REQUIRED TO DO BY LAW is simply a demonstration of how far you are willing to go in order to provoke response, no matter how far-fetched your reasoning might be.

    On the contrary. We have already established beyond any reasonable doubt whatsoever that Cullen does not currently hold British nationality. The latest date that he could have POSSIBLY held British nationality - even under the highly unlikely and almost certainly false THEORETICAL SUPPOSITION that he deliberately broke Japanese law by failing to renounce his British citizenship when he turned 20 - would have been 2007, when the British embassy itself began automatically revoking the passports of any adult who held a Japanese passport. Therefore, he does not hold British nationality now, nor did he hold it in 2008, when he played for Japan in January, February and April of that year,

    This is a spurious comment which seems deliberately constructed to confuse. Nearly all of the cases you mention involve people who held dual nationality - something that does not apply in this case. It has always been true that people who acquire citizenship later in life must meet far more stringent criteria. While this is a common event in Europe, where open borders make such things far more prevalent, it does not apply in the context you are referring to.

    No citizens of Japan, Korea, China, North Korea or Mongolia ( East Asian countries) has ever played for another NT after playing for a youth team of that country, and only two players have ever played for one of those countries after playing for a different country's youth team (both cases were former Hong Kong residents who played for China after Hong Kong was handed over from the British, having earlier played for Hong Kong.)

    You seem to be not only deluding yourself about which team Cullen "wishes to play" for, but also what it means to legally obtain and legally renounce nationality. Cullen was born and raised in Japan. He has never owned a British passport. While his status as the son of a British national ENTITLES him to obtain a British passport at the age of seniority (I believe it is 16 in the UK), it does not AUTOMATICALLY CONFER UPON HIM British citizenship. Since he was travelling on a Japanese passport as early as age 15 (his first U-16 overseas appearance), it is not at all likely (indeed it is counter-intuitive if not altogether laughable) that he would have deliberately obtained a British passport or taken steps to claim or confirm his British nationality. He was most certainly ENTITLED to claim British citizenship until he renounced it at the age of 20, but that is a very different thing indeed.

    Thats absolutely ridiculous. In Japan, any youngster with mixed parentage is presented with this dilemma from the time they are 9 or 10. Ask Goru-no-ura, whose own kids are no doubt making the same considerations, together with their parents. If a kid is talented enough to even be CONSIDERED for a national team of Japan, I assure you, the parents will have consulted with both the Japanese and the "foreign" embassy, consulted with lawyers, and reviewed the FIFA codes months before they ever have a chance to play. All the more so because back in 2005 (as you seem to have so conveniently forgotten), there was still an age limit on when you could switch your status, under FIFA regulations.

    Please, by all means run that by me again. I really enjoy the sight of a person trying to turn themselves into a logical pretzel.

    It "sounds" like you are suggesting that if Cullen was not in breach of the FIFA regulations when he played his FIRST game for Japan, then he never was in breach of them. As if the fact of playing a match for Japan in 2008 - when he had no British citizenship - wouldnt exclude him because the FIRST time he played for them, he still had British citizenship. I really had to read your comments several times to convince myself that you really DID mean to say that, but it appears you have done so in several separate posts.

    I must say, this is a unique argument. And a convenient one too. I may try it out myself

    Hey honey, it shouldnt matter that I had sex with that girl after we were married. Because you see, the FIRST time I had sex with her was before we were married. So all those times I did it AFTER we were married dont count.


    This is why I feel it is most likely that God created man and there is no such thing as evolution. Because if evolution really did operate properly, nobody would be mentally challenged enough to continue arguing a point that has already been proven beyond any possible shadow of a doubt.

    All of which means you now have a choice,
    (A ) You may slink away and hide and perhaps people wont ever discover who your "real" boardname is, and start making fun of you behind your back
    (B ) You may make up more illogical tripe which nobody can take seriously
    (C ) The moderators may finally wake up, review your profile, notice that you created the boardname "GreenandWhiteArmy" just minutes before making your first post on this thread, and that you have never posted ANY other comments on ANY other threads besides this one, conclude that you are a sockpuppet created solely to troll for responses, and delete both the "GreenandWhiteArmy" profile and your "real" one.

    As far as I am concerned, all three results are identical
  23. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    New York City FC
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    Matsu - you bring way more drama than is necessary to what is a pretty basic discussion and it conveys the opposite of what it seems you intend - that you are insecure in your position.

    Here's a few reasons why I believe it's odd to take an extreme position when the more reasonable one is to be agnostic:

    1. It's Fifa we are talking about. Not exactly known for their integrity in all matters. In the Freddy Adu case, we were told by FIFA officials that he was eligible to switch, even though the language in the rules clearly said he was not. While I'm sure that they considered every word in the rules, it doesn't mean that it isn't open to their interpretation on a case by case basis, which I believe the rules may even allow for.

    2. Fifa isn't Japan. Just because Japan doesn't recognize dual citizenship doesn't mean FIFA doesn't or won't. The US government also doesn't recognize dual citizenship, but that hasn't stopped players from switching. I haven't been able to read all of this so closely, but it seems that you are saying the existence of a Japanese passport on its face proves he is ineligible.

    3. I think you are misinterpreting the intention of the rule - which is Fifa doesn't want players from crappy confederations to live in Europe for 5 years and suddenly switch to play for a top team. If this player by birthright had access to a British passport, it may be that Fifa will rule that he was eligible at the time. This is different than marrying a Yank and then deciding he wants to switch.

    4. Weren't you just saying with hyperbolic certainty that you don't switch after 20? Will there be any mea culpas? I believe Fifa is not discouraging players from rethinking their choice as a youth.

    At the end of the day, this is an unknowable question and totally hypothetical and as I say in other forums, when the interested audience in the discussion heads toward 2, I suggest y'all continue the discussion via PM because at some point it just becomes about posturing.

    As far as I know, GAWA is not a sock, and I take a really dim view of those who think they are entitled to threaten the mods with going vigilante just because we don't agree with hyperventilating agendas.

    Green and White Army - you are ultimately a guest in this forum and Matsu is not, so I'd appreciate it if you would not continue a topic on this forum that ultimately is going nowhere.

  24. Matsu

    Matsu Member

    Mar 28, 2001
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    Dark Knight,
    Im not trying to be difficult I just want to make sure this is wrapped up as neatly as possible

    1. Point taken. Yes, FIFA is sometimes guilty of doing extremely bizarre and inexplicable things. However...

    2. You seem to have either neglected to read the foregoing discussion, or ignored the comments that I have been making since the very beginning. As a naturalized citizen myself, and a person who is often asked about issues relating to citizenship, when I encounter a new suggestion like the one G&WA made back on page 3, I feel a personal responsibility to find out whether I might possibly be wrong. That is why I contacted the British Embassy by telephone, and made absolutely certain that I understood their policies on the issue.

    According to THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT, Robert Cullen is not, and could not possibly be, a British national. The logic here is the same as the legal logic relating to identity. If Robert Cullen is x, he could not possibly be y. In other words, if Robert Cullen is currently sitting in Amsterdam eating lunch, he could not possibly also be in Tokyo, committing a crime. Courts recognize this as a fact, and do not take actions that are in conflict with the principle. And if a decision on Cullen's status is ever made, it will be made by a legal body - either the FIFA Legal Committee or the CAS.

    As a formal diplomatic policy of the UK GOVERNMENT, if Robert Cullen is a Japanese citizen, he could not possibly be a citizen of the UK. That is something that I know to be true from my own experience, and I took the time to confirm, beyond any possible doubt, with an official of the British Embassy in Japan.

    3. Again, I understand the point you are making, but it doesnt alter the irrefutable logic expressed in point #2.

    4. I do have a tendency to speak in hyperbole, but when I do so, I dont preface or postscript the statement with clarifications that "this is a fact, not a supposition. If youre looking for a mea culpa, youve got it.

    The point I was making is that in current FIFA practice - and particularly in the practice that existed in 2005, when Cullen would have had to make his final decision - U20 is pretty much the last chance you get to play for one country and still not be bound by your choice. If you play for a country AFTER you turn 20, youre pretty much stuck with that choice. In 2008 Robert Cullen played for Japan's Athens Olympic Team, at the age of 22 years, 10 months and 2 days.

    At the end of the day, this is NOT an unknowable question. If Robert Cullen is not currently, and was not in 2008, a British citizen (and this is a question on which a representative of the British government offered me an official statement of policy), then it is not possible - not even under the most extreme FIFA-related rules of illogic - for him to play for Northern Ireland.

    What makes the entire issue so ridiculous, though, is that Cullen has stated repeatedly that he only WANTS to play for Japan, and nobody anywhere in this discussion has even tried to SUGGEST that he feels otherwise. He speaks very minimal English, has little contact with his father, and has never shown any interest in his Irish heritage. The person who assumed the G&WA persona is himself sufficiently aware of this fact that he scrupulously avoided trying to suggest that Cullen ever actually WOULD do so, and was careful to stick to a theoretical discussion of what is legally, philosophically and scientifically POSSIBLE. There is not a single person on this thread (not even G&WA) who honestly thinks Cullen will - or even might - actually change loyalties.

    There is only one sort of person who would persist such a clearly pointless philosophical argument, despite knowing to a high degree of certainty that Cullen's loyalties lie with Japan. I think you know what sort of person that is.

    There is no logical reason why someone who does not have a previous board identity would create a new profile SOLELY for the purpose of taking part in this thread, and making arguments that are not aimed at debating a real world issue, but rather, which seek to resolve the existential, Schroedinger's Cat-like question of whether a person's sole legal nationality truly is their sole legal nationality, or whether it remains uncertain until FIFA opens up the box.

    If you want to continue pretending to believe that this person has no other board identity - that they just happened along at that exact moment, and decided on a whim to debate principles of existential reason on a soccer board, despite the fact that they have no interest in soccer - I cant stop you. But if that is your final decision, then you and I will both be aware of the moral duplicity exercised to arrive at that decision.
  25. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    New York City FC
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    Can you explain why the US - which i believe also doesn't recognize dual nationality has had players switch? I dont believe this is a legal question in the same way as it is for Nations it's about what FIFA deems is eligible. I personally think this is not altogether knowable but I'm a far cry from an expert on the subject.

    You had a very reasoned response going but you lost me on this sock insistence. Why would someone create a sock for this point of view? On this topic I'm somewhat of an expert and I just don't get the motive. And I've seen no evidence of such nor do I get why there should be.

    I do agree with you that the debate itself is pretty pointless at this stage barring some indication from the player that he is open to a switch. But you seem willing to carry it on indefinitely and you aren't a sock. ;). I suggest moving on and I've recommended to gandwa he contact you by pm if he wants to keep it going.

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