Ricardo Valenzuela :: Metros @ United (Playoff Match 2) :: Referee Thread [R][N&A]

JoeSoccerFan · Oct 31, 2004

Daniel le Rouge said:

Totally out of fcuking control.

Valenzuela reffed a fairly typical MLS game, which means he was totally and completely out of step with every other ref in the whole fckuing league. This is complete and utter bullsh!t!

Once, just ONCE I would like for consecutive games to be called in a consistent manner.

Were I United, I would file a protest with the League, appeal the suspension of both Nelsen and Kovalenko, and fine the League for malfeasance.

Here's how you do it: When you have the next home game, lock out the refs and the opposing team. Keep them outside of the stadium. Then claim a forfeit win for the match. Come right out and say to the League, "You want to play silly buggers? Let's play silly buggers."

It'd never happen, but it would be fun to watch. Grenada did something similar to us back in 1983 or so--the US was up 4-0 in Giant's stadium, and Jeff Durgan took a dive when a guy waved a hand at him after a foul. The ref bought it and issued a straight red. The coach of Grenada had enough by that point, and pulled his team off the pitch with about 5 or 10 minutes to go. In a FIFA World Cup Qualifier.

I lost all respect for US soccer that day. Took me six years to recover. And I gained a lot of respect for the minnows. Sometimes, a man's got to do what a man's got to do, regardless of the consequences.

Especially when it comes to referees in these here parts.

Bah, whatever. There are those who will tell you that I am completely biased against the referees in this country. I can only answer that it's true. I think that the media whores that we bribe to represent us in Congress have more honesty, integrity and basic knowledge of how to tie their shoes than the idiots we pay to referee soccer in this country. But that's just the way it goes.

The only solution is to kill them all and let God sort the maliciously vindictive from the grotesquely incompetent. And then we can start on the soccer refs ...
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Wow! I guess the bar closed at 0200.

Footer Phooter · Oct 31, 2004

Re: Ricardo Valenzuela :: Metros @ United (Playoff Match 2) :: Referee Thread [R][N&A

GrillMaster said:

Lisa, if they're your boys, please tell Valenzuela that I and many others think he's an effing disgrace to referees. Nine cards?? I hope the evaluator rips him two new ones. Fans pay to watch players, not referee boodoggles. Now we are without our captain, who is very, very difficult to replace on the field. And Pope skates by?

I could have ripped Valenzuela's adam's apple out with my bare hands last night, I was so angry. Thankfully we had a top-notch drum circle and I got over it.

But his style has always been and remains card diarrhea. Just go away, Ricardo, you pathetic excuse for a ref.

GM
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I completely disagree with you. With the large exception of the Kovalenko card, I didn't have an issue with any of the cards issued. (Granted I didn't have a good view of the fouls on the far end). The man had his hands full with this game, and had he not issued multiple cards, the game would have gotten out of control.

beltwayrob · Oct 31, 2004

Re: Ricardo Valenzuela :: Metros @ United (Playoff Match 2) :: Referee Thread [R][N&A

Footer Phooter said:

I completely disagree with you. With the large exception of the Kovalenko card, I didn't have an issue with any of the cards issued. (Granted I didn't have a good view of the fouls on the far end). The man had his hands full with this game, and had he not issued multiple cards, the game would have gotten out of control.
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Oh man, you need to come watch these matches from the nest because there were just some TERRIBLE calls. A couple cards that were uncalled for, or should have been matched the other way around if he was truly going to be consistant. He obivously had no idea what he was doing out there. MLS really needs to re-evaluate its ref situation before next season.

MikeLastort2 · Oct 31, 2004

Re: Ricardo Valenzuela :: Metros @ United (Playoff Match 2) :: Referee Thread [R][N&A

Footer Phooter said:

I completely disagree with you. With the large exception of the Kovalenko card, I didn't have an issue with any of the cards issued. (Granted I didn't have a good view of the fouls on the far end). The man had his hands full with this game, and had he not issued multiple cards, the game would have gotten out of control.
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He issued his first yellow about five minutes into the game. I'm sorry, but that is flat out ridiculous. Giving cards to 9 out of 28 players (all six subs were used) is just nuts. Valenzuela called a horrible game, and handing out cards like they were Haloween candy didn't calm things down. Quite the contrary, they made the game get even chippier. Good refs talk to players before they start showing yellow. Valenzuela didn't do that. He sucked.

GrillMaster · Oct 31, 2004

Re: Ricardo Valenzuela :: Metros @ United (Playoff Match 2) :: Referee Thread [R][N&A

Footer Phooter said:

I completely disagree with you. With the large exception of the Kovalenko card, I didn't have an issue with any of the cards issued. (Granted I didn't have a good view of the fouls on the far end). The man had his hands full with this game, and had he not issued multiple cards, the game would have gotten out of control.
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Exactly what did he have his hands full of? The game was far, far from being a chippy derby. He just felt the need to impose himself on the match instead of being invisible. His cards and calls/no calls were extremely impulsive in the first half and for most of the second. Seems like he finally got over his stage anxiety a few minutes after Nelsen picked up his caution.

We go to watch the players, not stupid referee arseholes. Crawl away and shrivel up, Valenzuela, just like your 'nads did last night.

This guy does not have the personality to center ref a big game. Let him do ok at several small games before he finds the center again.

Mad props to quiet siders who let the banana boys have it at halftime. Maybe that expression of disgust got through to him .... nah he took some Immodium at halftime to stop the flow of cards.

GM

ursula · Oct 31, 2004

This game was a perfect example of why kevin Stott, who reffed the previous two DCU-metro games, is so much better than the average MLS ref. In each game the two teams played the same- physical, doing everything they could do to get an advantage. All soccer teams worldwide will do the same. I have no problems with the metro for trying to do what they did. But here's the difference:

With Stott, who was very selective in his yellow cards, the play would calm down and the players would stop looking for the ref's advantage, stop doing the stupid gamesmenship stuff. (Not totally I realize- Guevara will always dive.)

But with Valenzuela, with the cards flying left and right, we gat to see the players playing towards to ref, trying to get the advantage of the ref in the game. It took both teams out of their game strategies; it took both teams away from playing soccer.

CHICO13 · Oct 31, 2004

GrillMaster said:

Lisa, if they're your boys, please tell Valenzuela that I and many others think he's an effing disgrace to referees. Nine cards?? I hope the evaluator rips him two new ones. Fans pay to watch players, not referee boodoggles. Now we are without our captain, who is very, very difficult to replace on the field. And Pope skates by?

I could have ripped Valenzuela's adam's apple out with my bare hands last night, I was so angry. Thankfully we had a top-notch drum circle and I got over it.

But his style has always been and remains card diarrhea. Just go away, Ricardo, you pathetic excuse for a ref.

GM
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I am CHICO13 and I approve this message.

big spaniel · Oct 31, 2004

Re: Ricardo Valenzuela :: Metros @ United (Playoff Match 2) :: Referee Thread [R][N&A

Footer Phooter said:

I thought he did a decent job, except for one major issue. Carding Kovalenko for diving was pretty uncalled for. After all that went on in this series, we get the cauton for diving?!?
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I just saw the reply of the Kovalenko yellow. The ball was way ahead of both him and Ziadie, they were totally no longer in the play. No reason for a card at all.

mutinywxgirl · Oct 31, 2004

Ursula, I couldn't agree with you more in your assessment of Stott, though I will admit he and the entire crew had a rough one in Giants Stadium last week, and personally, I was very surprised he was on that game (but glad he was). And yes, the number of cards last night seem a bit excessive.

And just to put the record straight about "my boys" here......part of my job when I worked at United Soccer Leagues was dealing with the referee travel for all A-League games (amongst other things with officials). This means that I had daily interaction with many of these guys, and count many of them as my friend. I am very happy when I have the opportunity to get to spend time with them whenever they are in town, or I go see them at other venues.

That said, though, I don't blindly support their decisions - I support them as a whole. I will defend them when and where necessary, but I will also point out when someone screws up. Though I'm not a referee, I attend referee meetings and fast track meetings, and I know how much preparation goes into each of these games for these guys....and for their recertification each year. It is unfair for some to come on here saying that all the MLS officials don't know what they're doing, etc. They do. Though what they see and call and card doesn't necessarily match what you'd like to see, in many situations, it is technically "by the Law" and therefore, will pass assessment with proper explaination. And, the boys with the white badges don't just get them for no reason. They have paid their dues over the years and have proved to make the grade. Yesterday, there were three white badges out there. (I will explain separately why the level of refereeing overall may have been down some this year.)

Was yesterday bad? Yes, but it was adequate. I'm partial to Stott's style myself, along with Vaughn and (don't kill me) Hall. But, I've also watched many of their international matches, so that's what I'm used to seeing, and both Stott and Hall bring that into MLS, though Hall hasn't been around this year.

It'll be interesting to see who gets the next game, but whoever it is....they won't have quite the level of hatred as what both Stott and Valenzuela had this series.

Regardless - I'm trusting a DCU win, and a trip to the Cup.

DoctorD · Oct 31, 2004

Valenzuela needs to work on his positioning. More times than I could count he ended up right in the middle of the play, or had to jump over the ball. He disrupted play for both teams in this way.

GrillMaster · Oct 31, 2004

mutinywxgirl said:

[snip]
(I will explain separately why the level of refereeing overall may have been down some this year.)
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I'm dying to read this, Lisa. Link?

mutinywxgirl said:

[snip]
It'll be interesting to see who gets the next game, but whoever it is....they won't have quite the level of hatred as what both Stott and Valenzuela had this series.
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Don't count on it, and you left out Vaughn who gifted Columbus a point and cost us two earlier in the season! But I think we'd all like to see consistent, professional refereeing, even if we get on our partisan horses at them once in a while. But MLS reffing is pretty damn bad -- and that should be one of the highest priorities of MLS HQ. Effing Valenzuela took players off the field in the next critical game because of his itchy card trigger-finger.

mutinywxgirl said:

Regardless - I'm trusting a DCU win, and a trip to the Cup.
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Amen. Good to have you here and on our side!

GM

Footer Phooter · Oct 31, 2004

Re: Ricardo Valenzuela :: Metros @ United (Playoff Match 2) :: Referee Thread [R][N&A

Well, apparently I'm in the minority on the ref's performance last night. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I've just lowered my standards a bit for MLS referees nased on past performance. It's just that I've left many games thinking "Man, that was horrible officiating". This wasn't one of those games.

mutinywxgirl · Oct 31, 2004

Footer - we'll have to talk later.....

ursula · Oct 31, 2004

mutinywxgirl said:

Was yesterday bad? Yes, but it was adequate. I'm partial to Stott's style myself, along with Vaughn and (don't kill me) Hall. But, I've also watched many of their international matches, so that's what I'm used to seeing, and both Stott and Hall bring that into MLS, though Hall hasn't been around this year.
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Yeah I'll agree with the "adequate" rating as the ref didn't change the outcome.

Footer Phooter · Oct 31, 2004

Re: Ricardo Valenzuela :: Metros @ United (Playoff Match 2) :: Referee Thread [R][N&A

mutinywxgirl said:

Footer - we'll have to talk later.....
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Sure, shoot me a PM. Not sure if you agree with me or not though.

JayRockers! · Oct 31, 2004

Re: Ricardo Valenzuela ::MetroStars @ United (Playoff Match 2) :: Referee Thread [R][N&A]

Dema Kovalenko: A caution worth three or more points in the next playoff game in which he appears will result in a one-game suspension from the playoffs.

DC -- Dema Kovalenko (caution; Diving, Exaggeration) 41

Are we sure it's a 4 point foul? Since MLS stopped putting CP's online, I've got no way to figure if it would be comprable to a "delay of game" card which is generally accepted as 3 points.

Thx,

Jay!

mutinywxgirl · Oct 31, 2004

Link here for the list of points.....but from what I can see - it's a 3 point card.

http://www.ussoccer-data.com/docfile/7_7Memo2004PRO.pdf

JayRockers! · Oct 31, 2004

Did the CP #'s come on the document originally? Or did someone else add them for MLS purposes?

Thx,

Jay!

ps. Thanks for helping on these last 2 threads. Maybe if you have any contacts in the MLS office, you can get the discipline stats/tables back onto the web!

mutinywxgirl · Oct 31, 2004

The numbers are there from USSF, not just for MLS - we used them in USL as well.

I'll see what I can do about MLS - don't have direct contacts there, but might be able to help. That's what I'm here for! When I began working with refs in 2001, I found my niche in the sport I have loved since 1975.....if that tells you anything. I'll do what I can where they are concerned.

Publius · Oct 31, 2004

Watching the replay I thought that Guevara's card and Nelsen's were technically justifiable but otherwise were pretty damned weak. Replays missed the Kovalenko call, but from what I saw at the stadium it was an awful call.

Worst sequence of the night was when Pope clattered into Jaime from behind and there was no call, let alone a yellow. Olsen picked up his deserved card about 5 seconds later, but if the ref is doing his job, DC has a free kick on the edge of the Metros' penalty area.

All things considered, the ref had a pretty good game by MLS standards, but it's unfortunate that we lose two players for next week on a couple of really iffy calls.

GrillMaster · Oct 31, 2004

Publius said:

[snip]
All things considered, the ref had a pretty good game by MLS standards [snip]
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Whaaaa....[shakes bewildered head]... oh, never mind.

GM

mutinywxgirl · Oct 31, 2004

LOL - boy I can't wait to meet everyone!!!!! It may not be this year, but it will happen.

TheFarSide · Nov 1, 2004

That ref sucked - 9 cards in a playoff game. I didn't come to the game to watch him. Call a foul and get on wiith the game. I couldn't believe his cards he was giving out. The one on Dema for diving was rediculous as he did get hit, but Dema did embelish it some. The only card I thought was justified was unfortunately Ryans.

Anyway it won't matter as we are going to roll over the revs and the ref next week. Hope we still have elilgble players come the final given the sh_ity refs we have

MikeLastort2 · Nov 1, 2004

Publius said:

Worst sequence of the night was when Pope clattered into Jaime from behind and there was no call, let alone a yellow. Olsen picked up his deserved card about 5 seconds later, but if the ref is doing his job, DC has a free kick on the edge of the Metros' penalty area.
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Watched the replay over at Tim's place on HDNet, and I thought Pope was mugging DC all night long, and I think he was whistled for a foul one time. He gets away with fouling because he's got a reputation for being one of "the good guys." But like good defenders everywhere, he's a bit of a thug.

JayRockers! · Nov 1, 2004

Re: Ricardo Valenzuela ::MetroStars @ United (Playoff Match 2) :: Referee Thread [R][N&A]

JayRockers! said:

Dema Kovalenko: A caution worth three or more points in the next playoff game in which he appears will result in a one-game suspension from the playoffs.

DC -- Dema Kovalenko (caution; Diving, Exaggeration) 41

Are we sure it's a 4 point foul? Since MLS stopped putting CP's online, I've got no way to figure if it would be comprable to a "delay of game" card which is generally accepted as 3 points.

Thx,

Jay!
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Upon further review, I had it in my head that a player needed 9 and not 8 points to be suspended. So Dema is most likely gone unless a miracle 2 comes out of this...

Thx,

Jay!
(math-wizard!)