Reyna: Man City v Aston Villa {R.}

Discussion in 'Yanks Abroad' started by babytiger2001, Sep 14, 2003.

  1. russ

    russ Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Canton,NY
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Welcome Green One.Thanks for your perspective.


    I don't expect Reyna to be able to go a strong 90 for a month anyhow.When he is fit to go 90,he must rate ahead of Barton and be close to Bosvelt as a defense minded central mid.The thing about him is he can serve with a Bosvelt or Barton and be an effective two-way player in a primarily distributing role.

    The depth is important,but there are always those players who seem to make themselves integral to the side,and whose absence is noticed when they are out .If some Saturday or Wednesday in March you see King Kev's team sheet and find yourself saying, "crap,Reyna's not in?We need him..",don't say I din't warn you.
     
  2. BackOtheNet!

    BackOtheNet! New Member

    Jun 6, 2001
    So Cal
    I completely understand and agree with your assessment. I don't think any of City's midfield will be consistant starters. Having all of them and keeping them fresh hungry and injury free would be a good thing as long as he can play each enough to keep them sharp. Many Sunderland posters blame overtraining for their big injury woes last year. I like your point and it makes good managerial sense.

    But I like many of Yanks know Reyna is good enough and makes a good case for himself in almost any side. He is a very good player.
     
  3. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    I don't know if Reyna will be strong enough to be "critical" or a "stalwart" on this Man City side, but the idea that if he is, the manager will still sit him for some idea of "rotation" strikes me as a bit unlikely. "Yes, Claudio, I know you've scored a goal in every match, had two goal line clearances a half and sold more bangers than anyone south of Perth, but I'm going to sit you for an out of form Eyal 'cause I'm committed to rotation..."

    On the other hand, the likely scenario will be, of course, that of 6 very decent middies, at least one, and possibly two will be a) hurt b) suspended c) on international duty (I haven't check the concacaf schedule, but they don't always seems to play on "international" dates.) d) waiting for a wife to drop a kid e) away on some other emergency on any given Saturday/Sunday/Wednesday. If you look at last year, Wright-Phillips figured in what 31 of 38 (23 starts) league games, Eyal started 27. If you have 4 starting middie slots and play fifty games a year, that gives you 200 starting spots. If you have 6 "startable" middies, they each get 33 + out of 50 possible starts. I'd bet that's on the high end of average starts for middies on clubs that go a few rounds in Europe. And the chances that the 4 starters of choice are available, healthy and want to play for every one of 50 club matches - zilch. I just hope Reyna stays healthy enough to get 25 to 30 starts. His best season 99-00 at Gers he figured in 41 (36 starts) of a possible 54 matches - 4th best for middies and I don't think he played more than 6 internationals.
     
  4. Excape Goat

    Excape Goat Member+

    Mar 18, 1999
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Yes, I agreed with this assessment. Reyna won't unseat Macca in the middle. Reyna's best chance is for Keegan to use Macca on the left side. I did not like Sinclair very much, but he did enough to hold on to his job.
     
  5. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Macca scored in the CL quarter or semis during one run (I think in the same game that Anelka scored), and looked consistently dangerous throughout that run.
    This comes from memory, and watching CL games but reading about primera l games, but while playing time last year was limited, prior to that, he was usually playing, often off the bench but frequently starting.
    Not getting a shirt every game day at r madrid does not translate into waste of space. The man can seriously play
     
  6. Metrogo

    Metrogo Member

    Apr 6, 1999
    Washington Hghts NY
    Why not, Friesland, the top sides that play heavy schedules do this all the time.
     
  7. Metrogo

    Metrogo Member

    Apr 6, 1999
    Washington Hghts NY
    Then you don't understand the distinction between playing for club and playing for your country. I really can't remember ever reading anyone ever criticizing Reyna's club career. The fact is, Reyna is the most successful club player that the US has ever produced (who is not a keeper). It's hard to argue with that. Reyna was often criticized for his play for his country. That's completely different.

    South london yank is right on the money here.
     
  8. jclampit

    jclampit Member

    Apr 12, 2002
    Hey, I've always been one of his greatest supporters, trumpeting his club success like a broken record to those that relentlessly belittle him. But for the longest time, it seemed to me that he was bashed as a player *period*.

    I never saw assessments likening him to those players that performed well for club and then disappeared when playing for their respective national team. It was always: "He's the most overrated player of all time, along w/ Kiro. All he does is receive the ball and make simple little passes. He's slow, doesn't ever make runs into the box, never scores, and hardly ever makes the killer pass. He's not horrible, but he is a liability, slowing down our fast break and taking a spot from a player that will actually contribute to goals on our part. He's the weakest number 10 I've ever seen..."

    They're talking, of course, about his play with the Nats, because most have never really seen him play that much abroad. But not once do I recall ever seeing: "Why can't he play like he does at the club level?"

    And had most of his critics actually seen his play at club level, I still think they'd be unswayed, because when playing at his natural position he's doing many of the same things he does for the Nats. I just think the subtle, but oh so important, things he does better than just about anyone is not adequately appreciated by many over here who want a true number 10 type or a flashier player like Clintinho. But he's not a true number 10, or an especially flashy player, over there either.

    I'm afraid that if Claudio doesn't do relatively well fairly soon, the vultures will be back. For the time being, I think they might be a little scared after being burned so badly by McHead at the WC and w/ Everton.

    But then again, maybe I'm wrong and have simply underestimated and misinterpreted these BS posters. Maybe they do like him as a club player, but hate him with the Nats. Maybe those same qualities he shows with the Nats (that they don't appreciate) would impress them at the club level. But I'm not sure that's the case.

    I think he's simply misunderstood and underappreciated by many of his own countrymen, period...at least by many on this board...er, until this thread. :)
     
  9. Casper

    Casper Member+

    Mar 30, 2001
    New York
    OK ... Reyna has also been one of the most successful national team players that the US has ever produced (who is not a keeper). People just seem to expect him to turn water into wine and play like Zidane, instead of doing things like lead us to qualification for three world cups and playing out so well in the elimination round that he is named to the all-tournament team in the World Cup.

    Claudio has achieved more than we could rightly expect from a very good top level club player for the Nats. What he hasn't done is achieve an all-time legend or world player of the year candidate for the Nats.
     
  10. dheck

    dheck Member

    Sep 20, 1999
    Chapel Hill, NC, USA
    A penalty for rebuffering? That's a new one.
     
  11. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    I don't think many top clubs sit "critical" players due to some commitment to rotation. A club will give a "stalwart" a rest, especially for a domestic cup game or late in the season if the table position is assured, but I don't know of a lot of cases where a "critical" player sat, despite being healthy, simply because the manager has a philosophical belief in rotation. You put your best team on the field for any serious game unless there are "tactical" reasons - like a more important game in a couple days, card/point accumulation or risk of mental/physical/spiritual fatigue.

    That said, in a 50 + game season with midweek Euro matches, you almost always have a middie, no matter how critical they might be, in need of physical or mental rejuvination, suspeneded or otherwise indisposed. But if, say, Zidane is healthy, happy, in form, card free and raring to go for 52 games, I'd bet he's on the field for most of them.

    Again, I'm not saying that Reyna is Zidane or that he is going to make himself "critical" at Man City. I'm just saying that few managers rotate simply to rotate. They rotate and carry big squads 'cause playing 50 + games (not to mention internationals) kills midfielders (and others.) Anelka, Henry, even Giggs managed to play most of their teams games last season, but that's a rarity.
     
  12. The Green One

    The Green One New Member

    Sep 15, 2003
    Manchester
    This'll be a large post, as I have a lot of points to address, so i'll be brief with them.

    You obviously have not seen Barton as much as me. He is a class act. He will be an England International within two years, for sure. He has held out the likes of Berkovic, Sibierski and Bosvelt to keep his place, and I am sure he can keep out Reyna. I have nothing against Reyna, nor for him. I think of him equally to Barton, so don't think I am being biased against Claudio.

    Not because of that at all. Sun has played consistently well for us this season. He has been criticised for getting forward to much, but I saw SWP getting back to cover, and when he gets forward, hes good. He has scored 2 so far this season, which is good for a full back.

    Distin is class, no question. He may have had a bad game, but there is no taking away the fact that he is quality. I would not trade him for many of the defenders in the premiership. If it was not for the likes of Gallas, Mexes and Desailly, he'd be in the France Squad.

    I seen Leverkusen's midfield at claudio's time, and it was nothign special to be honest. I am unsure of rangers' though, and Sunderland, even Jeff WHitley is in their starting XI. Here he will have a problem. If he becomes irreplacable, I'd be VERY surprised, but pleasantly. The midfield is simply great, and it is hard to see how even Eyal can get back in it, and last year he was immaculate.

    ~ The Green ;)ne
     
  13. Metrogo

    Metrogo Member

    Apr 6, 1999
    Washington Hghts NY
    I guess our argument is just semantic. I don't know about the word "philosophical" it's just that in a year of 50 or more games, coaches have to rotate.
     
  14. Metrogo

    Metrogo Member

    Apr 6, 1999
    Washington Hghts NY
    I think if you bothered to notice, most of the criticisms you are talking about occurred on the USMNT board, which would seem to imply that the criticism of him was as of a national team player. I don't remember EVER seeing a thred bashing him on yanks abroad for his play for Rangers.

    I am only pointing this out because you seem to be crowing about something you've known all along that few of us ever understood until now. But that's ridiculous. You are no sage for thinking that Claudio has been a fine club player. I think a very legitimate argument could be made that he had not played well at all for the national team prior to the WC (where a lot of players played their best national team game), but still think he was a fine Euro professional. In fact, that's the argument that most people were making about two years ago.
     
  15. Martin Fischer

    Martin Fischer Member+

    Feb 23, 1999
    Kampala. Uganda
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The Green One's arguments are very reminiscent of Ranger's fans who kept talking about how Reyna would never get into the starting lineup and then failed to notice when he kept starting every game he was healthy (he does have a point about Sunderland's midfield).

    Obviously being the captain of a World Cup quarterfinalist, selected to the Best XI in the World Cup, starting regularly in both the Bundesliga and the EPL, as well as for Rangers doesn't weigh much in the Green One's eyes against the qualification of "being an England international in two years." Reyna will get his chance to play and if he plays well and his presence maximizes the ability of the team, he will start. We shall see.
     
  16. jclampit

    jclampit Member

    Apr 12, 2002
    Metrogo, I have absolutely no idea why you're attacking me, and I personally think you might be reading something into my post that wasn't there when you accuse me of crowing about something I knew that others didn't and thinking I was a soccer sage because of it. That *would* be ridiculous, and if it came across that way to everyone on this board, well, that's not how it was meant. It was bad writing on my part.

    I think I misinterpreted your earlier post and mistakenly thought you lumped me in with the crowd that doesn't seem to like Claudio too much. That's the only reason I wrote that I've always supported him versus Claudio bashers.

    But I do think we have a fundamental disagreement, which is fine. If I understand you correctly, I think you're saying that most of the Claudio bashers rated him at the club level but didn't with the Nats...and that I failed to make the distinction and/or realize that it's quite possible to rate one's play at one level but not the other.

    And you may be right. Maybe that's how most people feel.

    But I think that many of the people on these boards who have never thought much of Reyna with the Nats would also not appreciate his style of play much more at the club level, were they given the opportunity to observe him at length; because he's not the fancy number 10 they want him to be over there either, nor is he as flashy as they'd like.

    In a nutshell, I'm saying that if they don't like his style of play with the Nats, well, guess what? It's not terribly different than the style of play he exhibits with his clubs. So they'd probably think he was overrated at the club level too.
     
  17. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    Agree 100%. I was just reacting to the idea that a coach would put "rotation philosophy" over a guy who is a "critical" player. Last year Sir Alf played Giggs in every game he could, 'cause Ryan was playing great, was available and was healthy. He didn't look at his April match rotation and say, "Giggs turn to sit." That's all. As I pointed out, very, very few players, and even fewer middies can play over 50 games a season, but a few do manage.

    I can't agree with the statement that he "didn't play well" for the USMTN before the WC. That's just silly in my eyes and simply ignores some very important games, for instance Costa Rica at home. Reyna missed a number of important games due to injury, but the idea that he did not play well until Korea doesn't fly with me.

    Ah well, on some things we will never agree.
     
  18. Excape Goat

    Excape Goat Member+

    Mar 18, 1999
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    he was actually the hero at the 2000 CL Final against Valencia. He scored a goal and was constantly dangerious throughout the game. i don't think he earned the MOTM award, but was close. He also played against Manchester United. That's all I remembered about Marca at Real madrid.
     
  19. The Green One

    The Green One New Member

    Sep 15, 2003
    Manchester
    El Hadji Diouf was considered Senegal's main man in the World Cup, look at him now. Rusty(sic) was selected for the world cup XI, look at him now. Starting regularly for sunderland means fuçk all to me. Rangers i didn't know about their midfield. At the time Leverkusen were shite.

    I am not getting at Claudio. I think he is a great player, but I am thinking more cautiously. We have payed for a player who was injured from December last year. Look what Fowler did after his injury. I also struggle to see how he will get into the team. I believe Joey Barton is a better player than Reyna. You have not seen him play, and if you had, you are likely to agree (provided you drop you pro-reyna bias). Since he burst on the scene hes picked up loads of MOM awards and player of the month at city, as well as being called up to England U21s where he has got MOM in both of his games as well as a goal. Anyway I knew that this'd be some america vs. the rest thread as soon as Reyna got criticised.

    ~ The Green One
     
  20. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leeds United FC
    Don't sweat it - it's a difference of opinion. Your comments are totally welcome here as far as I'm concerned, even if it is criticism.

    I personally tend to think Reyna is the kind of player who is hard to keep off the field because he rarely makes a bad pass, doesn't have the kind of ego that a lot of players do, is coachable and like a coach on the field, blah blah blah, but it will be interesting to see how it plays out.
     
  21. Martin Fischer

    Martin Fischer Member+

    Feb 23, 1999
    Kampala. Uganda
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well I will not be as welcoming as dark knight because I think you are condescending without really knowing much about what you are talking about. Here goes.

    Well, first, I never argued that Reyna would start because he was on the first XI. I just said it was a lot better qualification than someday making the English National side.

    And Rusty would start for Manchester City in a heartbeat. Plus El Hadji Diouf often starts for a team that most neutrals consider better than City (though I have my doubts), so I don't get your point there.


    When you take out the expletives, you are left with ... well nothing rational.

    More irrelavant rambling.

    I already admitted that you may be right, though I would bet on the opposite if I had to.

    I already admitted that you may be right.

    Actually, I have seen him play, as recently as last weekend. I don't count myself such an expert to say for certain that he is not or won't become a beter player than Reyna, but I don't see it yet. The real bias here appears to me to be City fans who way overrate English talent like Barton and Wright Phillips. For me, those were the two weakest players on the pitch last week among the forwards and midfielders (granted it was an excellent performance and there is no shame as not playing as well as Anelka and MacManaman).

    OK, using selection to World Cup XI is *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#e but being on the England U21s and having the fans (the same ones that think Shawn Wright Phillips walk on water) or local media give MOM awards is valid. Check your own bias as there is something wrong with this picture.

    Look, why don't we just discuss it fan-to-fan instead of this America versus England bulshite.
    P.S. -- Mods fix your bleeper as it deletes "*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#" but not "shite" or "fuçk"
     
  22. appoo

    appoo Member+

    Jul 30, 2001
    USA
    What Dark Knight said first of all.

    Also if Barton is highly regarded in the England youth Program then it'd probably be better for ManCity in the long run to give him (Barton) more time. Is he the player that Reyna is directly competing with?

    Also I'm not really worried about the kind of playing time Reyna gets. Obviously I wish him success but as a US National Team fan its not very important if Reyna starts or not for his clib side. We know what he can do for us.
     
  23. monop_poly

    monop_poly Member

    May 17, 2002
    Chicago
    Of course it matters. He needs to be in game shape for WCQ.
     
  24. nw

    nw Member

    Nov 14, 2000
    I have found that the English fans overrate the young players who have came up through the ranks, and never remember those once promising youngsters who never made it (far more than the ones who did). American fans too actually (and I am sure all over the world).

    I don't think Barton is that good, he might be a few years down the road, but he still has a long way to go, and by that time Reyna would've retired. Wright-Phillips has a lot of flair and ability, but he needs to turn them into more tangible end results.
     

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