Revs News, 10/13: Two new trialists in camp?

The hubris of this statement is why reading this Board is so entertaining.

 

Yep, only from a third tier club in the US could you get a contract like that.

 

I really, really, really doubt that's going to come to pass. I know just about everyone likes to dump on Burns, but he's a management guy, doing what the coach and ownership want done.

Nicol picks the players and manages the team. I wish it were otherwise, but it's all on him.

Is there no one with similar background whose been useful in MLS? I doubt it.

And, aren't most people saying they should be doing anything and everything to try to improve the team? It doesn't cost anything to have a couple of guys practice with the team.

How are you going to know unless you look at them? Everyone criticized them for the "not seeing them live" signing of Carraglio (which, ironically, is probably their best acquisition of the year!).

For one, we don't know that's the plan. For another, what do you want to tell the agent, we can't look at him because we're letting the coach go?

Most likely, IMO, is that as long as Nicol is the coach, he's going to continue to do everything that's part of the job.

Yeah, wouldn't it be great to see Nicol squash such arrogance in a debate? He's probably got more soccer knowledge in his big toe than anyone on this board.

Why does he make some of the decisions that seem so obviously wrong to some of the fans? Probably because he knows so much more about the particular situation.

Why start Cochrane instead of Coria in the last match? Well, maybe because Coria was coming off a recent injury and wasn't close to match fit - even if he might be useful enough to have available as a sub?

In retrospect, one of the most damaging decisions of the season was relying on Domi (who definitely showed me that could have helped a lot if he had been able to stay health). The cascading effect of that is that they felt they could let Sinovic go, then had to rely on an out-of-position Barnes and then had to pull their best left wing out of his best position.

Had Domi or Sinovic or someone else worked out at left back, Barnes would probably have been entrenched in central defense and Tierney at left wing - giving a lot more stability to the lineup. Instead, it's been a season of swapping and switching along the left side and the central defense. Not the whole problem by any means, but possibly the most damaging.

 

I may regret this, but what the hell....

There are limits to the numbers and amounts of money MLS clubs can pay for experienced pros from foreign leagues. The Revs need to be wise about who they spend their limited money and foreigner slots on. If they sign both these guys at a reasonable $200,000 each, that's two less slots and $400,000 less to work with in adding the other players we need to build the team around.

I am not saying that we fans know more than even a manager with a dubious track record for evaluating talent. After all, he has been around the game all his life. I also realize that any player we might sign is going to have his share of flaws.

But I will say this: The fact that the European season has been underway almost 2 months and these guys haven't found a club, even a modest club (like some of them on their resumes) says a lot to me. The other thing is the timing of a move. What player in his right mind would sign for a club in a backwater like the US so he could wait until February at the earliest to start training again? Assuming their last league game was in May, that's an 8-9 month layoff! There must be some club somewhere he could sign with right now and play immediately, as soon as he is match-fit. Why would anyone do this? I suspect it would be for non-soccer reasons. One of our French signings spoke of how the US was a great place to be, how he enjoyed the life here and always wanted to live here, etc. Great, especially if you're making $200k. But I didn't hear anything about the soccer reasons. We know how that worked out.

As Doc is apt to point out, we need to learn from history so we don't repeat it. We signed two guys with simmilar ages and backgrounds as one of these guys. Given that the other one was let go by Brest and is trialing at Rochedale, does not for a second suggest that he can be a star at the MLS level. If you want another Nayassi or Mansally, that's what this guy would likely be, except more expensive.

And yes, it does worry me that it is "business as usual" at Rev Central, because if they were going to make a management change, why waste their time trialing guys who they know they won't sign? Oh yeah, typically, the team will pay for a player's expenses for a trial, so airfare, hotel, meals, etc. are on the Revs. Why would they do this if they weren't serious about signing these guys?

For this reason alone, I think Nicol/Burns will be back.

 

This board is the only thing making the Rev's entertaining

 

But isn't avoiding those kinds of domino effects the real gist of being a successful manager? It sounds like they bet the farm on Domi being able to do what we all hoped he'd do. Trouble is, it didn't work out that way, whcih sometimes happens. Just like Twellman not being able to come back, just like Janko being healthy....

So why would Nicol go into battle without a Plan B? I don't recall who they kept instead of Sinovic, but in 20/20 hindsight, he at least could have been a good backup if the healthy Domi needed an occasional rest or a late-game sub.

If the entire house of cards can come tubling down on the basis of one player getting a serious injury, then the manager isn't doing a good job of planning out his resources.

 

I often try to defend the club's management every time someone bitches about roster moves and who could have/should have been signed. Hindsight is always 20/20. And in a league with a salary cap and a roster limit, there's only so many contingencies that an MLS club can build into its roster.

But in this case I don't see how I can defend the team's choices. Sinovic was a cheap, young, domestic player. Nothing special, but at least good enough to be a backup without taking up valuable cap space or an SI slot. if he could backup at left back he could back up right back, too, right? And wasn't RB depth a weakness from day one? And don't the Revs now have empty roster spots and lots of unused cap money?

I thought I read that Sinovic was released as a favour to the player because he wouldn't have played much here (assuming Domi was healthy) so the Revs let him go to find another club. If that's true it makes Nicol/Burns look like really nice yet really stupid people.

 

It's fairly easy to judge a player's caliber based off of what you can find online, including basic information like former clubs, age, appearances, etc. I have no interest in another 32 year old washed up European, we've gone to that well far too many times and come up empty. The other kid is younger but seems to have a hard time finding and keeping a job, even at low levels overseas. I'm not impressed with either of these players and highly doubt they'll end up signing here (although I put nothing past the clowns who run this team).

Caraglio is a horse of a different color. He is a young player, who has had interest from EPL teams, and has been called up for the Argentinean NT. Had he been healthy, he's the type of player that MLS teams would never even get a sniff at. The reason people were upset that we had never seen him in person is due to the fact that he was coming off a major knee injury and hadn't played a professional game in more than a year. All things considered, I think that's a fair concern.

I appreciate that you continue to complain about people complaining, apparently it's the new fad. Comparing Caraglio to these two guys is apples to oranges, and is the type of spin that makes the KADs come off as so delusioned IMO.

 

I hate how people think that just because someone plays in Europe for ANY team that they are better than any members of the current squad. Truth is that ANYONE coming to the Revolution for a trial has limited capabilities and has something wrong with them. No agent in their right mind would tell a player they represent that the Revs would be a good fit for them unless they're coming back from an injury or looking to ride out the rest of their career. I guarantee you that Phelan or Cochrane could go play in a 3rd or 2nd division in some country in Europe. It doesn't make they great players. Conversely, I think it's stupid when American players go oversees and come back to MLS, that they receive bloated contracts because they "survived/made it" in Europe for a year. Hell I'll go play in the 5th division in Belgium and try out for the revs, I'm sure they'd pay me a couple hundred thousand dollars for two year; it'd be more than I'm making now.

 

I have been reading this point of view for several years now.
Nicol has been in the sport his entire life, he's a Liverpool legend, he has access to all the information. Therefore, he's infallible. Why then would any coach in any sport ever get fired? Didn't Fernando Clavijo have access to all the information? Been involved in the sport from an early age? Same for Rongen.
I trust my own eyes better than Nicol's reputation. He preferred Zak Boggs to Ryan Guy most of the season. Boggs is an athlete trying to play soccer. He'll be out of pro soccer very soon. Nicol has lost his judgment. Dabo was physically fit to play in MLS? Numerous posters here knew it was ridiculous.
Nicol has lost the locker room. I cringe at his side-line segments during games. He obviously despises his players. I'm sure the feeling is mutual.

People can get stale in the same job over a long period of time. Nicol's been here 10 years, that's an eternity in pro sports.

 

Very true. In particular, the second tier in any country outside the big 5 Euro leagues is hardly a big deal. In some countries, even playing for a modest top-division team would be on par with MLS. We have come a long way as a league, and you cannot assume that anyone who has played "in Europe" is going to be good enough to automatically step into the starting 11 of an MLS team.

Mike Burns went on trial in 1998 with a few decent teams -- Hearts, Bolton Wanderers, Utrecht, and a Danish club I can't recall. The general consensus over there was that he was certainly good enough to play for those clubs, but not having legal working status worked against him. As a "foreigner," there were certain expectations that he needed to be much better than a domestic player. I believe in Holland, the minimum wage for a non-EU player is/was something like 400,000 Euro/year. Burns was making 90 grand with the Revs, and he might have been able to double that if he was a domestic player. None of the clubs had an issue with him as a player. Too bad for him, but that's the nature of the beast.

Given where the league was at that time relative to Europe, no wonder our guys are seen as bargains. Maybe not as technical as Africans, but certainly good value for the money. In the same way, the opposite applies to marginal Euros -- they are generally more expensive, and MLS teams have found that they get better value in Latin America.

Any coach in any sport will tell you that the nature of the business is that you are going to get fired sooner or later, your fault or not. It's just an occipational hazzard, and it doesn't mean you're a terrible coach. Usually they will wind up coaching somewhere else before long.

10 years is an eternity to be coaching the same team. No one in MLS has ever been in a job that long, very few managers on the world stage have done the same (Alex Ferguson aside). Even in North American sports, I can't think of anyone who has coached the same team as long, aside from some bigtime college football coaches (but that's different, since the players rotate through quicker than a pro team).

Not to say we should copycat everyone else just because that is what they are doing, but when 99.999% of the organizations in your industry do things a certain way, there usually is a pretty good reason. The Revs seem to be an outlier in MLS, the world of soccer clubs, and in North American sports.

 

Tom Landry, Mike Ditka, a guy maned Lombardi and Bill B seem to be outliers as well.

I agree that 10 years my be a bit much for a coach with the same franchise. A change of venue periodically is considered important for professionals of every stripes ability to stay energized. I've been resistant to the idea that the Revs NEED to replace Steve because I still think he's one of the best coaches in MLS if he has they players but after watching his body language and hearing his comments from the sidelines the past three games I think he's burnt out and I feel moved to agree with the majority opinion that needs to move on. He sure looks like being the coach of the Revs has stopped being something he wants to do.

 

Sure, there will always be some examples of that. Landry coached the Cowboys for something like 25-30 years, but Lombardi wasn't with the Packers for 10 years. Belechick has been here for 10+ years, but he also managed to win 3 superbowls. But if the Pats have 2-3 seasons in a row with less than 8 wins, you can be sure he'll be gone too. Back in the day, Connie Mack managed the A's for 50 seasons, but he was also the owner, so that was a bit different.

Right or wrong, when a coach has "lost" the team, it is time for a change. Once they start to tune out what he preaches, it doesn't matter how much sage advice he has. Another thing is that Nicol did well with vets who could create situations from scratch. Soccer (and hockey) is very much a free-flowing creative game where a lot of what happens is on the fly, unlike american football with set plays. I suspect that many of the new generation of Revs need more guidance and don't do well in a situation where they are left to their own devices to figure things out.

Players have commented that practices are a lot of small-sided games and they don't do a whole lot about tactics and strategy. It seems clear that many of the current team need that kind of guidance, and it shows in all the games where the Revs are disorganized. Nicol, as the manager, needs to be able to see these things and work with the players who need help. Some of the guys on our team who are guilty of "schoolboy defending" might be better if the manager had worked on certain things in training all week.

I can't see things getting any better with Nicol still in charge. He gave us some great years (the best we've ever had), and I'm thankful for that, but it is time to move on.

 

Now imagine if this was going on back in the days of Deuce, Parky, TnT, Noonna and Rally...now imagine if you will, Bruce Arena, Sigi or even Bob Bradley was the coach of those teams...

As far fetched as it may seem...I could see us winning at least 3 of 4 MLS cups and possibly a SS or two. Then things round these parts would be a whole lot different and "Soccer is for girls" wouldn't be a discussion on Feldshitz and Numbnuts on 98.5

 

1) it signals an interest by the club to the agent and player, 2) some members of the organization will have recollection (and video?) of the players when they had the chance to participate with the full squad, so that when the off-season comes, they'll have some data to go on about whether they should try to sign the guys and 3) it just curries good favor with players and agents if you're willing to work out guys when they are available. Maybe not huge factors, but on the other side, it doesn't cost anything to have them join in for a few days.

Yes, yes and yes.

I never did understand why the let Sinovic go (or why Nicol seemed reluctant to play him more last year), but I'm convinced there was more to the story than just his ability.

Young, cheap, fairly competent at a key position - why let him go?

Almost every foreign player in MLS was available to MLS because they didn't garner much interest in other leagues for one reason or another. MLS doesn't pay very well, it doesn't have the prestige of the better leagues, it isn't really the best stepping-stone, etc., etc.

Almost all of them had some question mark or another, yet some turned out to be pretty good.

Sure, it's a concern that one guy is 32 - yet central defenders generally peak later and last longer than other positions.

And, yes, it's a concern that other clubs haven't shown much interest in the younger guy, but there's a story behind everyone and, there are often plenty of factors having nothing to do with ability or attitude that play a role in making a team or not.

I didn't compare the players - I compared the situations; particularly how they were/are being scouted.

FWIW, when the Revs were being ridiculed for signing Caraglio, I don't recall the criticism being as nuanced as you present it now (and if the knee recovery was the major issue that made that situation so different, there are plenty of ways to judge the players fitness w/o seeing him in a playing situation).

I just don't think it's fair to criticize the Revs for doing what many of the same people wanted them to do in previous situations.

People say they want the Revs to sign guys before camp - so don't criticize them for looking at guys early.

People say they want the Revs to constantly be trying to improve their squad ...

People say they should see players in real game/practice situations before signing them ...

Coaches fail or become ineffective for all kinds of reasons, it doesn't mean they suddenly got struck dumb. Nicol's been MLS coach of the year. Sigi Schimd was too.

Coaches don't just "lose their judgment". Generally it gets better with experience. They may become ineffective for other reasons, but losing their judgment - I don't think so.

No, numerous posters guessed that he wasn't. And, they guessed right, so they feel validated. That doesn't mean they know more than Nicol.

Yes, I agree. And it's time.

 

Why wouldn't they? Hemmingway lost his ability to edit himself toward the end of his life, it was a major cause of his frustration with his writing, whether it was a cause of his depression or a symptom of it is up for debate (I'd say a symptom).

People lose their ability to make good judgements, it happens. Even to coaches.

I would agree that he hasn't lost his judgment though, mainly because I think he's had no from the start and has been a bad coach who inherited a good team who on occasion got lucky, and has managed to turn that into a decade of mumbling incoherent halftime speeches.

If anyone could understand anything he said, he'd probably have been fired years ago (like the mayor of Boston).

 

pathetic

 

Nicol = Hemmigway? I think of him more of a Yeats or a Hunter S. Thompson

I don't know about judgment, but I think it might be more a matter of what once worked to motivate the players doesn't work any more. And if you don't have any more tricks in your bag, that can be a huge problem. That's how most coaches get fired--they "lose the locker room" and then the results go downhill. I believe that's been happening for the last 3 or so years here.

Aweywiye, laad! Ah ken follo evry wuurd tha beg man sez an then soom. It's no' lake he's speakin' Spaaaanish lake that guy he replaced, Cavallo, ur suumpin lake thet...