HELP ME!! (Re: Revs Roster designations) Apologies b/c I know some of this is already spread out amongst other threads. However, I'm trying to wade thru the current revs roster as it pertains to MLS rules and regulations on roster size limits and roster status designations. I don't think MLS has issued a finalized stance on roster status categories for the 2003 season so here are the assumptions i'm going under: from mlsnet.com (post-draft): As a result of the 2003 SuperDraft, MLS teams have until Tuesday, January 21 to cut their rosters to 29 players (23 senior, 6 developmental). Two days later, a waiver draft will be held (IF NECESSARY). The pool for this conditional draft will include those players waived on Tuesday, as well as limit any players submitted by the teams to the League player pool. Teams will have until Monday, March 17, before they must be in final compliance with the League’s 24-player roster. from mlsnet.com (2002 reg's): Senior Internationals: Any non-greencard holding foreign player 25 years of age or older (during the season under consideration) will be considered a Senior International (Some international players younger than 25 can be considered Senior Internationals due to their contract structure). Transitional Internationals: Any young international player will count as a Transitional International until the beginning of the year in which they are due to reach the age of 25, at which time they will be re-classified as a Senior International. Developmental Players (domestic or international): Each team will have four Developmental Players on its roster. The contracts for these players will not count against a team's salary budget. In addition to Nike Project-40 signees, a team's Developmental roster can only include players 23 years of age or younger during the season in question. Therefore, to me, it seems to break along these lines: [Last season there were 22-man rosters, this year it will be 24 apparently] 1. Senior Roster status (18 + roster spots?): a. "Domestics", "Internationals", and "Green Card" holders that turn age 24 yrs or older during the calendar year in question. [salaries count against the cap] b. "Transitional Internationals" 24 yrs or less during the calendar year in question. [salaries count against cap] 2. Developmental Roster status (4 -6 roster spots?): if one is age 23 or younger during the calendar year in question. Furthermore, they can be labled as "International", "Domestic", or "P-40". (players here do not count against salary cap limit) Now, here's my stab at applying these guidelines to the current Revs roster: Senior Roster: Pos: Name (age in 2003), {special roster designation} 1. GK: Adin Brown (25) 2. GK: Matt Reis (28) 3. D: Leo Cullen (27) 4. D: Joe Franchino (27) 5. D: Daniel Hernandez (27) 6. D: Shalrie Joseph (25) 7. D: Daouda Kante (25) {S.I.} 8. D: Carlos Llamosa (34) 9. D: Rusty Pierce (24) 10. M: Tony Frias (24) 11. M: Jay Heaps (27) 12. M: Brian Kamler (31) 13. M: Winston Griffiths (25) 14. M: Peter Nowak (3?) {G.C.} 15. M: Steve Ralston (29) 16. M: Jim Rooney (35) 17. F: Wolde Harris (29) {G.C.} 18. F: Diego Serna (30) {S.I.} 19. F: Taylor Twellman (23) Devolpmental Roster: Pos: Name (age in 2003), {special roster designation} 1. GK: Kyle Singer (23) 2. D: Nick Downing (23) {P-40} 3. M: Marshall Leonard (23) {T.I. or dev. only?} 4. F: Patt Noonan (23) 5. F: Dimelon Westfield (24) Questions: 1. Is the above, the right breakdown (if not, then what?) 2. Does anyone know the snr/dev breakdown for 2003 18/6, 19/5? 3. What's Marshall Leonard's status? 4. MY GOD….is TFIII really going to stick on the S.R.? 5. If all is correct above…what is the likely move if JMM gets added? 6. Is our cap stuff so high that MLS is allowing 29 roster spots right now, yet the revs are only using 24? 7. To further #6, how will this affect the revs given the number of matches possible in 2003?
HELP ME!! (Re: Revs Roster designations) Rosters of 24---18 senor and 6 Dev (included P-40's). This the same as last year with the exception of adding two DV roster slots.
wait, something is wrong with my stuff. either developmental players get paid garbage up until 24 and not 23 (maybe TFIII is there) and rusty is in the senior roster due to salary or what are the revs doing with the 24 yr old westfield?
Neither Jim Rooney nor Diego Serna remain listed on the MLSnet.com website OR at the RevsNet site. I take this to mean that the transfers are official, but not yet publicized. That frees up two roster slots, one, presumably, for JMM, the other, to free up Developmental Slots. Carlos Llamosa has obviously made it public that he will not return, so that opens up another slot. I'm figuring that SN's got something up his sleeve, having that many slots open. Prof
HELP ME!! (Re: Revs Roster designations) No one has yet said which roster the new draftees will be on. The third keeper will be DR for sure but Noonan and Westfield could be on the senior roster if thats what the Revs want to do.
Looking at MLSnet now Serna is still listed as being on the roster as of Friday, however Llamosa, Rooney and TF3 are all gone. Downing and Leonard are listed as Developmental and I assume Soccer Doc is right that Singer will have to be there to stick around. Noonan could go to either place but I don't know if he'd sign a developmental deal (aren't they maxed at $1K). Westfield will have to be on the senior roster to stay. That gives us: Senior roster - 16 of 18 Developmental - 2 of 6 Unsigned Draft Picks - 3
HELP ME!! (Re: Revs Roster designations) Very Interesting: No Rooney, TF3 or Llamosa. Cloutier waived. I expect JMM and Serna will swap roster slots when JMM's signing become official. I understand the arguments pro and con for Noonan being signed to a DV contract. What is intreaging to me is what plan the Revs have for filling their DV Roster slots----IF THEY PLAN TO FILL THEM????? Will they just pick up some locals as practice players with the possibility that an occasional one just might be a player for the future?
Re: HELP ME!! (Re: Revs Roster designations) This intrigues me as well. Let's assume Noonan does sign a DV contract instead of going to Charleston (I think that's who drafted him in the A-League) and Singer signs as well. We would then have: Singer - GK Downing - D (P-40) Leonard - D/M Noonan - M/F What kind of player will we be able to find to fill those last two slots? Certainly not any returning YA's (Salyer, Joy?), or foreign discoveries who are worth a damn. We will be condemned to filling them with TF3 type practice players who won't be able to help us in either the short or long term.
you know, i pulled all the roster info off the revs website and everyone was still there minus cloutier (from the 1/22 waiving).....so the revs would've had to have updated their site sometime on wed eve. something clearly looks like its going down in the last day or two over at mls central. too bad it feels like its the league's doing though. were rooney and tf3 both out of contract? tf3 i could imagine.....anyone know what rooney was set up for this year. all of the speculation about serna going and jmm coming still leaves 1 senior roster slot open right? if serna's going....its gotta be a deal within mls for something. unless they see something they think they can get in this supposed supplemental draft. could somebody clear-up the age thing for me though? can you be on the developmental roster at age 24?
I don't think so. The rule you quote above looks to be pretty cut and dried (of course it is MLS so we will never REALLY know). If a player is going to turn 24 during the coming season they have to be on the senior roster as either a TI or 'domestic'. Presumably that means a 23yo who was on the Developmental roster would have to graduate to the Senior roster or be cut before the season they turn 24 (TFIII?).
I remember two years ago someone asked Assistant Coach John Murphy why TF3 is on the team. I believe he replied "It's a secret" and wouldn't say anything more. I wonder what he meant by that?
Noonan signed a contract with the league before the draft, so he won't be developmental. Pencil him into the senior roster. Does anyone know what JMM's asking price was? I wonder if he'd fit into APC/Llamosa/Rooney money. If we keep Serna, JMM, and Noonan and lose Llamosa, Frias, and Rooney we'd probably be right at the limit. If we also lose Serna, we still have our discoveries or maybe someone over the limit will try and dump one, like Bonseau last year.
Re: HELP ME!! (Re: Revs Roster designations) Updated....is this looking correct Senior Roster: Pos: Name (age in 2003), {special roster designation} 1. GK: Adin Brown (25) 2. GK: Matt Reis (28) 3. D: Leo Cullen (27) 4. D: Joe Franchino (27) 5. D: Daniel Hernandez (27) 6. D: Shalrie Joseph (25) 7. D: Daouda Kante (25) {S.I.} 8. D: Rusty Pierce (24) 9. M: Jay Heaps (27) 10. M: Brian Kamler (31) 11. M: Winston Griffiths (25) 12. M: Peter Nowak (3?) {G.C.} 13. M: Steve Ralston (29) 14. F: Wolde Harris (29) {G.C.} 15. F: Patt Noonan (23) 16. F: Diego Serna (30) {S.I.} 17. F: Taylor Twellman (23) Devolpmental Roster: Pos: Name (age in 2003), {special roster designation} 1. GK: Kyle Singer (23) 2. D: Nick Downing (23) {P-40} 3. M: Marshall Leonard (23) 4. F: Dimelon Westfield (24) {T.I. or bust?} i've taken out the people that mlsnet doesn't have on their site for the revs. looking at the other teams, they've apparently eliminated people that aren't currently under contract or are gone altogether. if jmm comes or llamosa gets resigned, or they keep westfield....there's your 18. regardless that leaves 3 developmental roster slots open. really hoping that since they didn't fill them in the draft that they have people they are currently looking at. however, looking at previous TI rules....there is no limit to how many a team may have, but the league has a max. last edict from mls had it at 20.....i've only seen 5 designated league wide, so that doesn't seem to hinder the revs too much.
Re: Re: HELP ME!! (Re: Revs Roster designations) There used to be 3 levels of internationals. Senior Internationals, 3 per team. Transitional Internationals, count on senior roster but don;t count as SIs because of their age. Youth Internationals, who are roster exempt because of their age. Vaca was one, wasn't Sunsing originally? Anyways, the YI designation disappeared last year and TI is still a senior spot, so technically Westfield would be developmental or bust. More likely, with Serna/JMM, I would expect him to challenge Wolde for a roster spot, as that forward spot wouldn't get much playing time and it might be a good spot to try and develop a kid.
Re: Re: Re: HELP ME!! (Re: Revs Roster designations) right, there's only 2 levels of "intl's" in mls right now (however, alegria and 1 other person are currently "grandfathered" under the old rule for this season i believe). anyway, that's a question i'm trying to get at. at 24 yrs....is anyone allowed to be on the developmental roster? NateP replied....no. i'm still unclear. so, if westfield is considered "intl" (which i don't know that either), he'd have to be on the senior roster as a t.i. or he'd simply be let go. mlsnet bio says he was on the t&t u-20 team until 1998.....don't know his current status though. Dimelon Westfield Bio (Clemson)
Rpster Observations I think we can discount what we see as the Roster on the Rev WEB Site. On the other hand the MLS Roster seems realistic and probibly is how the Revs stand at this moment--ie--no Rooney and no Llamosa. As it stands we have 21 players on the roster but unfortunately 19 of them are senior roster players and only two are sure DV roster people--Downing and Singer. I'm reasonably sure we will see JMM replace Serna on the roster over the next few days. It looks like for the moment there are three players fighting for two senior roster slots--Noonan, Westfield amd Griffith. It may well come down to who does better during preseason. I think a huge question remains: who if anyone will be filling the 3 or 4 empty DV roster slots?
Re: Re: Re: Re: HELP ME!! (Re: Revs Roster designations) Here are the developmental roster reg's you dug up on MLSnet: Developmental Players (domestic or international): Each team will have four Developmental Players on its roster. The contracts for these players will not count against a team's salary budget. In addition to Nike Project-40 signees, a team's Developmental roster can only include players 23 years of age or younger during the season in question. I have bolded what seems to be the important part. If his age is really 24 there is no way for him to be on the Developmental roster unless he is P-40 (is it even possible for a P-40 to be 24 or older?). Or he could turn up a "Cuban" birth certificate to make him younger like so many recent MLB pitchers have done. His national status is trickier since MLS doesn't mention it at all. Because he played for the T&T U-20's up until 1998 I have been assuming he is a TI this year. It is possible that he has a Green Card and MLS just doesn't list it yet. Either way it won't matter until next year when, if he is a TI, he would switch to an SI and that would be one more obstacle to making the roster.
Re: Rpster Observations I think the larger question is who do we bring in to replace Llamosa. That would also mean that Noonan, Westfield, Griffiths AND Singer are fighting for one senior roster slot. The other one would go to a replacement for Llamosa. Which, I hope would be in the form of an international "discovery".
Nate, yeah...that's the big question. where is the breakoff (age-wise) between the senior and dev roster? is there a strict break at all? t.i.'s are a big deal b/c they do take up spots on the senior roster i believe. and if that's the case, i think i'd rather have t.i.'s on the roster that are "discovered" somewhere other than the 3rd or 4th round of the draft. and soccer doc, why are you saying downing and singer are the only guys on the d-roster? b/c mlsnet has designations only on them? is it possible that their contracts are somewhat flexible and/or in limbo until its decided if they make the squad or not. maybe i'm wrong. maybe that's why the 29 man roster will get trimmed down to 24 soon with all of the slots coming out of the senior roster. but, it would be nice if someone here could definitively decipher this mess.
Re: Re: HELP ME!! (Re: Revs Roster designations) The above list (minus Llamosa and Rooney) is 17 people, and JMM would make 18. If Joseph can play at all well, we don't really need to replace Llamosa right away. That would make 5 solid defenders, and we might even get away with Cullen filling in for Joey in a pinch (with Rusty and Kante in the middle). If we do this, though, I'd hold on to a discovery pick just in case. If we have JMM and Serna that would drop Wolde into very few minutes. In that case, I might put Westfield (younger and cheaper) into his spot. If we lose Serna, I might still replace Wolde with Westfield and use a discovery on an experienced SI.
Foreign players who go in the draft are "discounted" and go later because they are harder to fit onto a roster. Since NE isn't loaded up with foreign players it makes sense to draft one. I look at Westfield as a "discounted" 1st round pick. Leading scorer at the combine (depositing the ball in the net is not a common skill I've seen among US college players), former U-20 T&T National Team players and someone who is very much in the picture for the full T&T National Team. That's a pool that includes some incredible talent! My impression is that Westfield is in a direct confrontation with Griffiths for a spot on the team - whichever shows more potential necessary for a foreign slot. Westfield may need to show the versatility to do some time in midfield as well, to make his case. If they both look good, Wolde may then be in some jeopardy, but since he has a green card, that's less likely. Noonan is on the full roster for sure, unless he ends up being a total bust - which seems very unlikely since he's not some 17 y.o. - there's no way a 1st round pick signs a developmental contract. Singer is "developmental" or nothing. Frias has to be done - I don't see any way to continue that travesty into a spot on the full roster - it would become a national story instead of just a local little secret. I don't see the Revs filling in the final developmental spots. After all, they were passing and trading away late draft picks. I get the impression that Nicol doesn't want 25 guys at practice!
Hopefully the Frias experiment is over. rkupp's right about Singer. I forgot to add it to my post, but with Brown and Reis, there's no way we should have a third goalie on our 18 man roster.
Revolution Roster (Updated at MLSNET) The following is an updated Revolution roster that's currently available through MLSNET at: http://www.mlsnet.com/teams/rosters/ne.html Adin Brown Leo Cullen Nick Downing (Project-40) Joe Franchino Winston Griffiths Wolde Harris Jay Heaps Daniel Hernandez Shalrie Joseph Brian Kamler Daouda Kante - Senior International Marshall Leonard - Developmental Player Pat Noonan Peter Nowak -Green Card Rusty Pierce Steve Ralston Matt Reis Diego Serna - Senior International Kyle Singer Taylor Twellman Dimelon Westfield FYI, The Magpie
A third Keeper on the DV Roster makes huge sense when your #1 Keeper has a history of regulat injury and may also be in position to be called up for national Team duty. The DV Roster costs us NOTHING and we have the back filling Keeper able to work out and learn the team for emergencies. And from what I hear it works for Singer. He will be able to go to Graduate School and enjoy some professional soccer at the same time. having him is a no-brainer. George