Let me get this straight, tax cuts are a punishment? Look, you can argue the economic wisdom of the cuts, or whether the across the board cuts were "equitable", but don’t try to sell tax cuts as a punishment.
Sigh. All those posts, all that effort, and this is all that you walk away with? I felt like I posted a whole lot more than that. Are you arguing that that is all you understood of what I posted? If so, that's...disappointing. I made them meet on $26,000 a year; CCRB, City of New York, 1996-1997. Of course I lived in Harlem (145th Street and St. Nicholas, to be specific...ahh, I remember living literally 65 steps from my 24-hour-doorman-ed front door to the entrance of the subway for the A Train...not the most direct way to Rector St., but the quickest way downtown from where I was, no doubt...), and not 78th and York or some such...but I lived in a building so solid in terms of its features it was itself featured in the Post for its quality...I had a huge - relatively speaking - one bedroom. Still, at 26K a year, even $700 a month is tough...but, again, it can be done, and you can still have a life; you can't buy everything you want when you want it, but you can, for example, hop the train down to Times Square on the night the Yankees come back from two games down to win the WS over the Braves, celebrate in the streets and have strangers hand you full unopened bottles of Grace Family Vineyards...you can do THAT...I digress... The second time I worked in NYC I wasn't making enough to live in Manhattan, or anywhere NEAR Manhattan, with a wife and kids, so I commuted 84 miles each way, each day, and paid $25 a day to park (at the lot that used to be across from the Port Authority, but is now a scraper, on the Madame Tussaud's side of the block, for those who remember). I would get up at noon, spend an hour with my wife and six-week old son, leave for NYC at 1PM to be at work for a 4PM-to-close shift (b/c you never knew what traffic at and around the Lincoln Tunnel would be like), close the venue at 2AM, get out of there by around 4AM, stay to set up ABC for whatever production (be it Sports Reporters, or MNF Halftime Show, or the Dan Patrick Show in the radio booth, or a special interview with McEnroe about him captaining the Davis Cup team in Zimbabwe where he feels like he can degrade one of my staff beforehand, and I almost knock him on his ass...but I digress), setup a following days' function, leave at 6AM, get home around 8AM (Assuming that there was little traffic or one-lane shutdowns for roadwork), slepp until noon, and do it all over again. Days off? Usually Mondays, but that was when the manager's meetings were held, so I'd have to go in anyway. Why didn't I take the bus in? Never worked the day shift (that was for the lightweight, privileged managers and GMs), so I couldn't get a bus back to South Jersey. Got really familiar with the Original Broadway Cast's rendition of Les Miserables, though...I can sing it now: There... Out in the darkness... A fugitive running... I could do Javert in my sleep, I listened to that tape so much...but I digress...in any case, that second NYC stint I busted my ass and probably lost money to go to work (at least until the company began picking up that parking tab about 70% into my time there), but I was remembered, and networking and folks thinking of you wherever they are when opportunities pop up is half the corporate battle. That remembering led to my third stint, which informed the rest of my working life to this point. The third time I worked in NYC, I made the company give me a multiple-thousand dolllar signing bonus I used to buy a home in Bergen County...literal white-picket fence and all, and - importantly - best. neighbors. ever. Two bedrooms, nothing too ambitious...probably paid too much for it...but the foolishness of the market got us back, plus some...most importantly, my daughter was born in the upper room there...I look down on the house now with Google Earth in permanent affection...and wonder why the current owner won't mow the lawn in the pattern I mowed in...mine was clearly the most efficient way to tackle that backyard...sadly, I, again, digress... I worked the same crazy hours, but pulled in more money...they promised me a $70,000 a year pay scale, but I never got it. Ever. Maybe this guy, my direct report, was stealing my money, who knows...he was steling all the other money around there...I left without another job at all due to wanting to get away from the malfeasance I saw, and formed my own company, used my own credit cards, and flew on the hop to Football Expo in Cannes, pushing my ideas, when CONCACAF came along. In any case I took a pay CUT (from my never-received supposed salary for the third job) for my fourth/fifth jobs in NYC, as Head of Special Projects for CONCACAF and as the North American liaison for FIFA's "e-FIFA" project. I won't go too much into this gig, as I'm preparing a book on the subject right now, but suffice to say that there were opportunities in that job, and in two of the jobs before that job, to become fabulously and undeniably wealthy, on NYC's terms. It always seemed that the price tag to be paid for crossing that line, however, was too steep for my taste. But again, I feel like I've internalised - maybe it was all that Quaker schooling - being in meaningful relationship with others. When you work hard to try to keep track not just of the economic aspects of your fellow human but of all their humanity, the choices that lie before you get narrowed, the choices you'll make as you go forward in your life are different, for that awareness set of reasons, than the choices you'd make at age 20, or 25, in relative ignorance. I've worked for some of the biggest names you've ever heard of, and the story, for the most part, was always the same, and I stayed astonished at some of the things folks would do for the kind of money, or the hint of the kind of money, that they thought would lead to the gated community life and the leaving behind of the great unwashed (not every gig was like this, but I can tell you that in the industries I was in, a helluva lot were exactly like this)...but I digress... The CONCACAF gig led to awareness of the bogus FIFA Masters Program, of the men and women who left trying to make that program into something other than a political tool for the current regime. Watching were those folks went led me to Alba. Which led me to what I do now. So, for the NY metropolitan region, or for any region, I've never made mad loot...just done mad work, gleaned mad insight...but that was always more important to me anyway. Ahimsa..."do no harm." My daughter's middle name is Jain...do you get me now? When it comes to things...to consumer goods above and beyond the organic food lifestyle that takes most of my money...well, let's see: I have DirecTV for the sports, but my kids don't watch commercial television (and too much damn NOGGIN at that), and they don't even know to make Christmas/b-day lists, so when they come to me, at any time of year, and ask for something, they usually get it, because they've usually thought about it (this applies to the six-year old more than the three-year old, but she follows his lead alot of the time). My wife isn't a materialist, and she gets everything she asks for, and things she'd never ask for, precisely b/c she's not overly interested. My parents want to give the boy ROBOSAPIEN; we convinced them to give him piano lessons instead (he went over a friend's house and went through the cycle of interest-disinterest in that toy in fifteen minutes). I have an Alienware laptop and desktop...life is good (sh!t! THAT's where all the far away vacation money went!!! )...I digress... Nonetheless, we still managed to have two naturally birthed/home birthed kids, a wife at home who doesn't haveto work (she chose to work in Alba b/c she's never gotten an opportunity to use that Masters on anything other than the kids...she mainly got to understand the difference between a health system and society that assume the worth of every human being, and ones where you do not have worth until you prove your worth in contexts and frames established by those in power...I digress), a German Shepherd Dog, contribute to every cause I wished to contribute to, support my grandmother on my mother's side in terms of living expenses, find time for activism of all sorts, launch a business (developing "timeline" historical content for various football clubs) and sell my overpriced house for an "overprice" in the foolish, foolish market that is Bergen County, NJ that totally facilitated the parlaying of that former asset into a doctoral degree abroad (ABD), an additional experience for myself, my wife and my kids that intensifies the degree to which I feel that the American people are screwing themselves. Not because they pay taxes, but because they often have, as you seem to have, a pathologically inconsistent and truly mythological conception of themsevles...a "nation"...of individuals; how, exactly, does that work? Again, sadly, I digress... Other than the fact that my wife convinced me to move back from blessed Alba to the States for her sake, her mom's sake (chronic fatigue can be a bitch, but she's a trooper) and for the benefit of the extended family, who missed - and deserve to see more often - my kids, I currently live in a set of circumstances far better than even those shared directly above...and I'm making about what I made at CONCACAF. The reason has to do with interdependence and support, one for the other, that is reflected both in the family into which I was adopted at birth AND the family into which I married. We all help each other out. That's the dynamic that the American people deserve NOT just when a 9/11 happens, but as a matter of course. That's only possible when you start out by making a decision to give a ******** about the next (wo)man, regardless. It's a love-based proposition, the Social Contract and "nationhood," whether we acknowledge it or not. So is maximizing one's humanity. I digress... For the record, I'm a 35 year-old father of two (the GSD, sadly, passed away). Again, I've had a job of one sort or another since I was 12. Now, NYFutbolfan, help me, specifically understand you here: exactly and precisely how does knowing all that help you make the argument (failed and crippled, in my view) that you were struggling to make?
I still say that if you pay $50k - $60k per year in taxes that you're pretty well off. How do I know this? Because that's about why my wife and I pay, and we ain't exactly starving. The cost of living between the DC area and the New York area are pretty much the same.
My view is failed and crippled. The people you worked with did things that you would never do, just for the love of money. Mel, I appreciate the time you've taken to respond. I think after all this time it must have dawned upon you that people have differing views of the world and different values. You can call others anything your mind can conjure up. You can say that they are materialistic, selfish, immoral, non-interdependent, etc. In my view this country was founded for individual freedom. You don't see it that way. You see a vast interdependency. Unfortunately, my life experience has dovetailed with yours. I've seen people that will do nasty things without thinking twice in order to elevate their careers also. I've also seen people find a zillion ways around any system that's been created, whether it's cheating at retail stores, basic industry or the local soccer club. People will do what they feel is in their best interest. I agree with you that there is a more noble ideal. I agree that looking out for someone else is important. I agree that people should be educated towards these sorts of values. The difference is how these aims are achieved. Do we build up the individual and raise his awareness to the level where he realizes that sometimes his fellow man's interests are critical to his own well being OR do we pursue a big brother mentality where we put our trust in the government to take of us? By looking to help other people thru government, are we also establishing a mentality amongst those going thru a difficult period to learn that they do not need to help themselves? Isn't this a system that is tailor made for abuse, sometimes from recipients and sometimes by administrators? Tax policy is based upon these sorts of arguments and the need for politicians to maintain their careers. If I had more time, I would develop my point more fully, unfortunately, I have to go back to work for "the man".
This indicates you've read at least the last line of the above post. This indicates that you haven't read much else at all. And I appreciate your appreciation, but I've asked you a specific question; you sought the financial backgrounds of those here. I've posted a copious amount on that, and tailored it to my experiences in the NYC region (I've worked all over the nation, but focused on NYC because you seem to claim that that area is one of the areas that are different). and I asked you, directly: ...exactly and precisely how does knowing all that help you make the argument (failed and crippled, in my view) that you were struggling to make? I'm interested in exactly and precisely how knowing the above about me help you clarify a point you somehow could not before, without such knowledge. What about your argument needs that info at all? Or is it that you were hoping to marginalize me and others into the pigeonhole you fashioned for me in post #74 ("...You're already lined up at the trough"), and, now, cannot do so because I busted my ass and forged a life for myself and my family while holding view apparently oppposite your own, and you cannot reconcile your conception of me as illuminated in post #74 with the reality? Disabuse me of my ignorance here; help me understand why you think you needed to know what I posted about my work and finanical background in order to make the points you've made subsequently...because I don't see it. I think that you wanted to charactrize me a certain way, and found something else entirely, and are now retreating into "Well, we just see things differently." Well, we knew that before this thread was launched, and certainly after your first set of exchanges with myself and various folks. Yet you needed...financial information on us such that we fulfilled your conception of what "...trust in their fellow man" means, and concluded in that selfsame post that "Sometimes what you don't say, may be more revealing than what you do say," as if there was some legit condemnation by yourself for folks who did not offer as much information as you have, which of course there isn't at all. So now that I've gone beyond what you've offered, and because you see disclosure here as tantamount to righteousness, I challenge you along these lines: you cultivate about yourself a perfect independence, and a longing for such a mindstate to be a reality; in fact, you argue that that is what this nation is founded upon. I challenge you to name anything you have EVER done, not just in work but in your life, that was not the result of an interdependent state of being. I argue that there is not a single moment you have existed that you have existed outside a state of interdependence with others, and with the larger universe. That you always have the power of choice, and that that choice is always operating in an interdependent reality. That, as a result, the perfectly independent human (or the perfectly dependent human that your "...lined up at the trough" comment seems to lead you to characterize others as) is mythology that keeps us from operating in ways that reflect knowable reality. So go ahead. I challenge you to offer up any moment in your existance that has been, or COULD have been, perfectly independent...where you did something all by yourself, out of relationship with anyone, with help from nothing and noone. I submit that you cannot. And if I am correct, that truth LENDS itself to the analysis of our current, American mythological state and how it is harmful in the longer run.
Tax cuts that inordinately benefit one group of people and leave another group of people holding the bag on the tax burden are punishments. As one example, presume for a second that the SS income cap gets raised from 90k to 150k. That could alleviate a great deal of any concern about SS funding. Of course, the tax burden increases on people making between 90k and 150k. (Whether that's OK is a different question). Meanwhile, eliminating the estate tax and cutting capital gains taxes does nothing for someone like NYFutball Fan or your hypothetical 100K family of four.
1. Agreed, but the people holding the bag are our children. Our Government needs to start making some difficult long-term decisions on both sides of the budget equation. 2. I'd like to go on record saying this is a bad idea. 3. We've discussed in the past, I'm not in favor of eliminating the estate tax. High capital gains taxes are different. They introduce too much complexity into otherwise simple decisions. In the end, I wouldn’t doubt lower capital gains taxes raise more revenue. Same goes for dividends. One final note, don't underestimate my hypothetical 100k family of four, they might be middle class today but the aspire to be much, much, more.
Yes, my personal wealth is not increasing as much as it once did before I retired. Still I am not unhappy that goodness.
Show me the family that is able to live solely off of income from dividends, and I'll show you a family that is not in need of a tax cut. I think neither one of us is enough an economist to argue where Keynesian economics and the Laffer Curve intersect, so I'll simply say that there's no way either one of should believe that lowering capital gains taxes ALWAYS raises revenue, or that lowering capital gains taxes NEVER raises revenue. I believe a tax policy that rewards the uber-rich creates an income disparity even between the upper middle class and the upper class that is not good for the country. Your hypothetical family should dream big-- after all this is America-- and Bush's tax policy hasn't killed that yet.
Alot of posters seem to believe that because a book, a govt. study, a poll or an article states that X amount of people make X amount of money, they are classified as being in X, Y or Z class. As I read along, quintiles were discussed back and forth and net worth got mixed in as a basis for class possibly knocking out income as a criterion. I had mentioned my tax payments along with my claim that I felt that I was in the middle class and that I feel pinched by multiple govt. entities pulling money out of my pocket very year. So, I was interested in finding out about BS posters. I was hoping that they were real people. I was hoping that instead of reading govt. stats, I could find out from real people in KC, Utah, New Mexico, Texas, California, Mississippi and South Dakota where they thought they fit in the economic picture. Put simply, do they thrive on $ 50k in SD? Does a family of 4 in Oregon live very well on 20k?, 50k, 100k, 200k? Can a single guy in Orange County,Ca make less than 60k and feel like the bill collector's not running after him. To make it even simpler, an example might be; Hi NYfutbolfan, I live in Bopunk, Idaho, I have a spouse and 2 kids. We live in a 3000k sq ft home on 3 acres and do very well as the taxes are low. As a sole provider, I average about 125k in income and 20k in taxes, plus the cost of a home similar to mine is 250k. of Hey dude, Single guy in SF making 60k. My studio rents for 2k/mo. This is a hi tax area, I have no deductions, so I'm paying 17k in taxes, I'm barely a step ahead of the bill collector, and with my income I can hardly make ends meet. But I really don't care because I'm unattached and it really doesn't matter to me. So, when Mel asks, I'm interested in exactly and precisely how knowing the above about me help you clarify a point you somehow could not before, without such knowledge. What about your argument needs that info at all? My response is, I was asking for information. I could not know what the responses would be, so I wasn't asking for the info in order to make it fit an "argument". My request for info for the most part has gone by without many responses. Mel gave me more info than I cared to receive. I wasn't looking for his family history or his struggles with dealing with business associates. I wanted to get an idea of where people thought they fit within the economic strata. Did they feel that they were doing well on $X in X state. Heck, the name of the thread is "the US is getting Poorer." Well, how do we know that? Do we know that just by reading a govt. report on how we should feel? Do we know that by reading the newspapers that go around telling everyone that everything about the US (especially under a republican administration) sucks? I just figured I'd ask people that were on this site. I thought that I was clear when I gave 4 examples when I originally asked the question, but I guess from the responses that either I wasn't clear or noone was interested. Unfortunately, I'm left with the impression that most of the posters do not agree with my basic premise of the role that govt. should take in the US and that is probably why so few can understand what my question was about. It seems fairly obvious that it's time to wave the white flag as so few of you can understand what I'm talking about. I didn't come here with the objective of "my argument" winning the day, but I thought that the issue that I brought up could at least be discussed. Since, it appears that most of you feel under-taxed, I hope in the future that you will have the opportunity to give the govt. more of your own money. Good luck to y'all.
First, as to your invitation to discuss personal situations, the screen name John Galt exists for a reason. I think your lack of response comes from the fact that not everybody wants to discuss their personal situations on an off-topic politics board. Second, while my responses were not to share my life story with you (except by vague reference), I believe I gave you two substantive responses that you chose to ignore: (1) Your income suggests that your complaints of your socioeconomic status results from your own personal choices rather than government taxes (e.g., you could have saved more for your kids college instead of buying a bigger house if going to a private elite university was your goal); (2) As a policy matter, the appropriate response to upper middle class gripes is to appropriately set tax incentives -- such as 529 plans, education IRAs, lifetime education credits, student loan interest deductions -- such that upper middle class folks continue to get the benefit of these incentives; the proper response is not to cut taxes on elite-rich programs like estate taxes and dividend income that is of no help to you. Third, as to the specific topic of this thread-- your "plight" actually helps to prove my point. You feel as though you cannot get ahead. You choose to blame the government and taxation. You then support an administration whose tax policy does nothing to help you. The upper middle class is not benefitted by Bush tax policies. You are actually harmed because the budget deficits created by those policies will eventually result in the government having to do things like raise the SS cap and lower income limits on deductions for Education IRAs. Not only is there conclusive proof in this thread that the number of people classified as poor are growing, but your complaints evidence the concerns of those who see a growing income disparity in America, not just between the haves and the have-nots, but also between the have-somes and the have-really,really lots. Just because alot of life stories weren't swapped doesn't mean you haven't had ample chance to respond substantively.
But you launched an arguement when you indicted myself and others in your earlier posts. Those posts, which remain here for everyone to see, weren't reflective of seeking information, but of condemnation. If you're submitting that your approach in this thread evolved from what we see to what you claim it to be now, then that's fair, if arguable. Sounds like you weren't just seeking, but looking for specific info...to fit an argument that you were making... And my argument is that government should be US. That the demarcation is a result of our not understnading and committing to democracy. But you have been submitting more than that...you, in statements like those found in posts 74, 84 and 87, are clearly submitting that you want to pick and choose your democracy, and enjoy...how did you put it..."the advantaged taking advantage." And that's a position that, for the purposes of this board, is perfectly fine to take; but don't act like you didn't take it, and that all you were doing this entire time was seeking information by which to better understand and explore the condition in which various 'merican families find themselves. You were full of indictment and condemnation. Having been rebuked, for the most part, for such a stance, and having failed to respond to the paradigm-shattering question I asked at the end of my last post (which would have, imv, forced you to acknowledge that you've done NOTHING BUT exist in a state of interdependence, and that, as a result, we need to authentically consider the IMPACT of a "perfectly independent" 'merican mythology), it does seem that this dialogue is probably over. Did anyone submit that they felt they themselves were undertaxed? Willfully misrepresenting this entire thread's contents, including your own submissions, doesn't lend credibility to your claim to that of Seeker, does it?
Wasn't talking about ecomonics, just that lower tax capital gains make it much easier to make buy and sell decisions, triggering more taxable events, thereby increasing revenues(?). Just a theory, no real data backing any of it up. Same with dividends, lowering the dividend rate has increased the amount of dividends being paid out.