Jebus. I'd always got the impression this sort of thing went on but not to this degree. Huge can of worms.
Effect this news will have on the pathetic yobs who still insist on singing "No surrender to the IRA" at football matches: Zero.
Good article but no real surprises there. Finucane had a target on his head for yrs. and was harassed by the cops & loyalists. Now if they can trace it back to the top levels of the army & police, that would be more significant. I'm pretty sure the higher-ups have covered their tracks. Info. was passed on at lower levels to the UDA but someone had to authorize it.
But he wasn't a member of the IRA, he was a lawyer who represented them. Everyone involved with this case seems to agree on that now. Imagine if the lawyers for, say, Tim McVeigh or Richard Reid were seen by anyone with power in the US government as legitimate assassination targets. That's what this is about.
There is a body of opinion which claims that Finucane was a member of the IRA , indeed he was said to be on the ruling Army Council of the IRA . Problem is membership of the IRA or any terrorist organisation is not like joining say the AA . Anyway there a lot to this than one lawyer's death ,however regrettable . http://www.opinion.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2002/06/25/do2501.xml http://www.opinion.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2003/04/04/dl0402.xml
I'd like to see one solid piece of evidence from anywhere that says he was a member, let alone a leader, of the IRA. Please provide links -- and not just to loyalist sites. Here are the two facts as I understand them: 1. He represented IRA defendants at trial. 2. He had family members who were IRA members at some point. That's it. It proves nothing, but to the UFF he was still a strategic target because it would make it harder for anyone accused of being in the IRA to get a decent lawyer. He likely was a "sympathizer" in that like most NI Catholics he probably agreed with the Republican cause, but (much to the Protestants' chagrin, I'm sure) that's not a crime.
well why should it? It's not as if it's a story that reveals the IRA were just a bunch of nice but misunderstood guys all along. Frankly I'd be amazed if this sort of thing didn't happen, although it should be stressed that info was leaked by individuals - it wasn't the government sectioning murder (had that happened there's absolutely no way it'd have come to light). I'm not saying it's right, because it certainly isn't (which is why those involved are facing criminal prosecution) but I can't see what connection it has with anti-IRA feelings. ps I hate the song BTW.
Of course. But on this side of the pond, you'd never have even heard of any of the Loyalists unless you did some investigating on your own. In American media, the entire conflict is couched as the IRA's fault, when it's nowhere near that simple. I know I'm going to come across as a bit of a conspiracy theorist, but there is still a anti-Irish, anti-Catholic sentiment in the States. Not even remotely as bad as it used to be, but it's still there. It's probably why Republicans (in the Irish sense) get as much support as they do here. In the interest of full disclosure, I'm Irish-Catholic. (OK, a mix - but my mom is 100% Irish, and my great-grandparents were the ones to come over. And I'm no longer Catholic. But I do like Celtic. And I've never supported the IRA, except for having a few beers in a Columbus pub that was rumored to be Republican. What can I say? It was a great Irish neighborhood pub.)
Really? Maybe it's just the fact that I live in the NY area, but it seems far from that to me. Come St. Patrick's Day, you can't move for Irish, both authentic and Plastic. And I would've thought that one of the reasons the Republicans you speak of get so much support is precisely because people have little understanding of who's involved in this. I always got the impression most Americans saw the English (not the British, few people seem to understand that Welsh, Scots, even Irish serve in the British army) as an oppressive regime. The people I've spoken to/heard don't have a real grasp of the Loyalist groups part in this. I'm not one to sing 'No Surrender' either, that doesn't get us anywhere. But I was distinctly uncomfortable sat (especially coming from a Military family) in the pub next to a bloke wearing a 'Beware: Sniper At Work' t-shirt with a delightful list of 'tour dates' on the back. As an aside, it's funny (funny peculiar) that some Americans think they have to walk on eggshells when bringing up the fact that I'm English around Irish or vice versa. They don't seem to realise some families (mine included, great-grandparents I think) emigrated East as well as West.
From what I've seen on these boards a large number of Americans think Britain and England are the same thing, and that the UK is made up of Britain, Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland. Consequently it's always the English(/British) who get blamed for invading N.Ireland at the tale end of the 17th century, when the vast majority of the invaders were Scots. (Scotland & England were still separate states at that point). On the other hand last year I was an English guy in Boston on 4th of July and I drank in Irish bars for much of the day and people couldn't have been friendlier.
While at the same time British intelligence helped it's agents in the IRA kill loyalists, soldiers and civilians http://www.sundayherald.com/33817 http://www.sundayherald.com/33815 and here's a load of backgroundstuff about the dirty war the british fought in Northern Ireland . http://www.sundayherald.com/np/fru.shtml
The Dogs on the Street in the North knew there was collusion. The Stephens report (which confirmed the Collusion) faced many obstacles from the British Establishment, most notibaly the Offices in which Stephens operated his report was set alight (believed to be Arson). My father (an innocent man) was killed in a local bar where he was playing Darts by the UVF (who were after the bar owner, who was arrested in America for supplying guns to the IRA). Was there collusion in this incident?
Where on Earth is their evidence of that? This is a typical tactic of trying to divert attention away from this important issue.
Columbus has their share of Irish (there is a suburb called Dublin, no joke). Of course, my brother lives in Chicago now and he told me that the 17th was probably the craziest day he's ever seen. My problem with St. Patrick's Day is that it's a excuse for non-Irish folk to get totally pissed on green beer... and that's about it. Dublin OH has a cultural festival, and bigger cities do something about it, but thru most of the midwest anyway it's just another excuse to drink. Moreso than Octoberfest. End tangent. As for Irish-English relations, my ex-roomie in college was from London, and had an Irish grandmother. And, FWIW, I understand that most of the Loyalists are "ethnic" Scots. I think the whole thing is mostly overblown Celtic stubbornness with a very large pinch of religious intolerance. On both sides.
A response a month later, but this still needs addressing: I don't doubt that there has been a financial link between the IRA/Sinn Fein and many sympathizers here in the States. But there is zero proof that the Catholic Church in the U.S. was directly responsible for funding the actions of Irish Republicans. Instead, look at some of the Irish-American social organizations (not church-organized, but sometimes linked with a parish) who raised money purely under the table... except when Gerry Adams and Paul McGuinness were the keynote speakers at a local function.
I think you mean Martin McGuinness. Paul McGinness is the manager of U2 (who most famous statement was "****************** the revolution!" in response to the 1987 Enniskillen Bombing).
Martin, yes... as a non-Irish student of what has happened in The Troubles and an avid U2 fan you'd think I'd have the two of them straight....