Referee Alex Proust is a Pinhead Twit! (R)

Discussion in 'New England Revolution' started by MrSangster, Sep 18, 2003.

  1. MrSangster

    MrSangster Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Duxbury,MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And he is a donkey, too !

    [​IMG]

    What horrible officiating in the Revs vs. Rapids match. Beckerman should have a been a yellow and Kamler as well. Mastro deserved the 2nd yellow.
     
  2. Matrim55

    Matrim55 Member+

    Aug 14, 2000
    Berkeley
    Club:
    Connecticut
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Disagree. Every card was completely deserved. Prus did a great job of protecting the players, and each of the three guys sent off deserves to sit next week - Beckerman and Kammler for being clumsy and stupid, Mastroeni for being vicious and stupid.
     
  3. keepersdad73

    keepersdad73 New Member

    Sep 1, 2001
    Pruss ruined a good match. Extremely incosistent,
    unique interepertation of rules, he should apply for a job with thw WUSA
     
  4. The Magpie

    The Magpie Member

    Nov 19, 1998
    Cambridge, MA
    The ejection of Kamler was bull*#*#*#*#*#. While it was somewhat clumsy it was a 50/50 ball that the Colorado player was going in hard on as well. Beckerman's straight red and Pablo's 2nd yellow were deserved.

    Hey, maybe it's Mullett envy.

    The Magpie
     
  5. Cweedchop

    Cweedchop Member+

    Mar 6, 2000
    Ellicott City, Md
    I actually agree with this..

    While Kamler is undoubtedly one of the nicest and most professional players in the league, that was a studs up tackle that connected above the knee.. It doesn't matter if he intended to do it or not, it happened..

    With that being said, anyone with a brain knows that a ref in most cases will even up the sides if there is any hint of a bad challenge for the remainder of the game..

    Doesn't make it right, but that's just the way it be...
     
  6. Cweedchop

    Cweedchop Member+

    Mar 6, 2000
    Ellicott City, Md
    I understand your frustration in what was all likelyhood an evening up process from Prus, but are suggesting clumsy challenges shouldn't be red carded? The intent was not there at all but nonetheless he connected studs up above the knee.. That is dangerous and definitely red cardable..
     
  7. FlashMan

    FlashMan Member

    Jan 6, 2000
    'diego
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yea, I thought all three were good calls too. I don't completely understand the red card rule, but Kamler's studs almost got whoever in the balls with full force, and it was a very dangerous play. I think a ref can call a red card on that if he so desires.

    And he did.

    Maybe I don't understand the rule right, in which case I stand corrected.
     
  8. TheLimeChicken

    Mar 27, 2001
    Dorchester, MA
    Did he miss the league directive concerning stoppage time in OT.

    I was under the impression that there was none. If a player went down in the first minute and it took them 4 to stretcher him off then that was it, OT over. There was a good three minutes added on to that first OT. I turned to my dad after Pablo got his second yellow and said "Now watch him run out the entire period." And if there was no stoppage time he nearly would have.

    Unless of course I'm on crack and there was no such league directive, but I'm pretty damn sure I read it somewhere
     
  9. keegofan

    keegofan New Member

    Oct 30, 2001
    Mass.
    I think the cards were OK except the yellow to Tnt. 1, 'from behind' has not been called consistently and 2, TnT has made that play dozens of times this season without the card. As many have said, the officiating is the worst part of MLS right now.

    KF
     
  10. JMMUSA8

    JMMUSA8 New Member

    Nov 3, 2001
    Webster
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There is stoppage time in OT. In fact the way i found out was last year against the Crew where the game ran 15 seconds longer then i thought it should and the Crew scored.

    As for Kamler's red, thats a tough call. Def yellow, border line red. But i agree, this was a horrible match for the refs. MLS needs to do something fast about this pack of morons.
     
  11. Jon Martin

    Jon Martin Member+

    Apr 25, 2000
    SE Mass
    It would be unkind to point out that, if this were true, DCU would be playing with an average of 8 men per game. Instead, I will only point out that Califf was not carded (at all) for kicking Twellman's face, because he intended to play the ball.

    With regard to the officiating crews' competence, there is also the matter of two elbows to the face that were completely missed.
     
  12. The Magpie

    The Magpie Member

    Nov 19, 1998
    Cambridge, MA
    "While Kamler is undoubtedly one of the nicest and most professional players in the league, that was a studs up tackle that connected above the knee.. It doesn't matter if he intended to do it or not, it happened.."

    Well the thing is... I don't think it was Kamler's intent to tackle. If anything, the replay seems to suggest that he was looking for the ball coming from over his shoulder, then raising his foot up on the back-side trying to collect it out of the air. The Colorado player was going for the ball as well and seemingly couldn't avoid contact.

    Maybe a yellow for the end result, but hardly a straight red.

    The Magpie
     
  13. Deuteriumoxide

    May 27, 2003
    Rockville, MD
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thats what I saw too, I don't think Kamler even saw the Colorado player.

    But he did connect really high, so who knows. Maybe the ref saw some intent. I think that there ought to be SOME intent, or at least complete lack of concern in order for Red to be shown.

    Beckerman's red made more sense because he swept his legs through the Cancelas' from behind.

    I think that if Pablos second yellow card foul had happend in minute 30 this ref would have shown him straight red for it. PAblos foul was the worst of all the ones carded tonight. Two boots up, thats just silly.

    Pablo had a pretty good game up until then.
     
  14. John Lewis

    John Lewis New Member

    Mar 15, 2000
    Boston
    I thought that card was harsh too. It was more of an unfortunate collision than any sort of tackle. Kamler wouldn't even talk about it after the game.
     
  15. kevbrunton

    kevbrunton New Member

    Feb 27, 2001
    Edwardsburg, MI
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I can't comment on last night's game or calls because I didn't see them, but in the Califf / Twellman case, when a player dives a foot off the turf to play a ball and then gets kicked in the face, HE is the one that made the dangerous play, not the kicker.
     
  16. NER_MCFC

    NER_MCFC Member

    May 23, 2001
    Cambridge, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Actually, I thought that was absolutely the correct call. My real complaint with the officiating last night was that from my sight it looked really inconsistent. There were things, like the Twellman yellow or playing the advantage and then giving Mastroeni his first yellow, that I thought were really good calls, but there were numerous incidents where I couldn't believe Prus didn't blow his whistle, and several of them would have been against the Revs!

    As I said in another thread, by the end of the game, I had no idea whether he was going to call a foul or against which team.
     
  17. rkupp

    rkupp Member+

    Jan 3, 2001
    Exactly. In both cases the player whirled and kicked at where they expected the ball to be. [And in Califf's case, it should be pointed out that he got ALL face and NO ball. Does an opponent dangerously going for a low ball give you the right to kick them? No. It only gives the right to an indirect free kick - if the ref calls it].

    And in neither case will either player change how they play, nor should they. There's no room in the game for hesitation.
     
  18. Mike Toole

    Mike Toole New Member

    Dec 23, 2002
    Cambridge, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It wasn't a tackle. Kam was trying to collect the ball, and the Rapids player dashed in front of him.

    I don't think it should've even been a card. The intent certainly wasn't there, and I don't think Kamler was even aware that the Rapids player was in the vicinity until the guy ran in front of him-- which left maybe half a second for him to check his run and bring his leg back down. No time.

    MLS officiating in general is disgraceful. There were a number of plays last night, both for and against the Revs, that should've been whistled down, not the least of which was Heaps getting punched in the face by a Rapids player right in front of the ref.

    Stuff like that is why a lot of Americans would rather watch European soccer than MLS. I won't abandon MLS, but I can understand the sentiment-- it's just infuriating and depressing to see such poor quality refereeing so often.
     
  19. FlashMan

    FlashMan Member

    Jan 6, 2000
    'diego
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm sure I'll get flamed for saying this but up until the Kamler red, I thought the ref had more or less a perfect game, with little or no controversy (excluding the Beckerman red, which could have been a yellow; but he gave him a red, so be it).

    After the Kamler red the ref became more inconsistent, no doubt, but overall, it wasn't the worst of performances IMHO.
     
  20. gnk

    gnk Member

    Nov 1, 2000
    Rockville, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Magpie is 100% correct. Kamler did not intend to tackle anyone. It did not appear that he even saw the Colorado guy there. Beckerman clearly intended on making a "tackle" (if you can call it that). While I thought Beckerman's red was a bit harsh, he nonetheless did intend to bring Cancela down (or at least his complete recklessness in tackling from behind and nowhere near the ball can be regarded as intent). You cannot say the same for Kamler. As has been pointed out, however, and as I'm sure Nicol told his guys at halftime, beware of the ref trying to even things out. It's unfortunate that refs do this, but it's part of the game.

    Anyone who has FSW (or any other channel that gets Euro football) should watch the refereeing this weekend. Neither Beckerman nor Kamler would have been sent off for what they did. But that's a different issue for a different thread.
     
  21. Chip

    Chip New Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Connecticut
    The way I saw the Kamler card, it was way out of line. This appeared to be very similar to a situation explicitly discussed in my referee class. The situation we discussed was the popularity of the raised leg/knee of a Goalkeeper when going for a ball. The training was that this was not specifically authorized, and if it was dangerous it should be called. In last nights case, I thought I saw two players hard charging for a ball. Kamler raised his leg (for whatever reason, but certainly not with intent to injure) and caught the other player in the midsection. In reality both players went in hard, and either could have come out as the fouled one. Since Kamler had his leg raised in a dangerous (and perhaps reckless) manner I would have yellow carded him.

    OK, let's look at USSF's own words on the issue. First a look at the rules for a red card:

    These are the two relevant ones. Next lets look at the relevant comments from their "Advice to Referees" (both from the 2002 edition):

    Based on these, I'd have to say that only a yellow was warranted. It was fairly clear to me that Kamler did not have any intention to injure or intimidate the opposing player. At most it fits the comments about a miscalculation of strength.

    Finally I would like to agree with those who feel that Prus was inconsistent. He has always been. I think a typical game from him includes few early cards followed by a flourish of them late. He is notoriously uneven in his calls. And I think on at least one occasion in the past we'd benefited from that tendency. Last night we suffered and it wasn't just the cards that were shown, but in the cards that weren't shown.
     
  22. Fred Woods

    Fred Woods New Member

    Sep 27, 2001
    Cambridge, MA
    Chip's post quoting from the rules is helpful. I like the reference to a "stern talking to." I think a lot of the best officials give verbal warnings early to keep the game under control and to avoid having to give cards later. Prus' three red cards not only produced a bizarre 10v9 game, but also mean that fans next week will miss seeing three starting players. He needs to be reminded that fans come out to see the players, not the referee.
     
  23. Dr Jay

    Dr Jay BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 7, 1999
    Newton, MA USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You're right and you're wrong. Just because an opposing player puts his head at risk via a dangerous play, doesn't absolve his opponent from exercising proper control of his body. By your reasoning, everytime a player ducks down for a header, the opponent can kick him without fear of a foul.

    The other issue with Califf/Twellman is that the ball was long gone and Califf hadn't come close to touching it.

    The proper call, in my opinion, would have been IFK for Galaxy for dangerous play against Taylor and at least a yellow for Califf for a reckless and late challenge.
     
  24. MrSangster

    MrSangster Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Duxbury,MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I thought Kamler was reckless with no intent to maliciously harm the Rapids player. Twellman got the ball but tackled from behind. That makes a tough call especiallyat full speed. Mastro's application of both of his feet to Marshall Leonard's chest should not have been a second yellow but a straight red.
     
  25. rcleopard

    rcleopard New Member

    Aug 26, 2003
    Some things, as I am a referee. (THough, understand, I am not speaking for the USSF, just my judgement)

    Please note that the Advice to referees is simply that. Advice. The latest directives going out and about seem to make it clear.. that if you SHOW spikes.. SHOW them.. or USE them.. regardless of intent, then you are carded.

    Serious Foul Play occurs when:

    1. You commit a penal foul while the ball is in play.
    2. You commit the foul on an opponent.
    3. You commit the foul on the field.

    Intent is no longer a question of the referee. A foul is a foul is a foul.

    Now , the cards , the way I see it.

    The first ejection was good. It was a tackle from where the opponent could not see the attacker, it was a two footed tackle, and it made no efforts to get to the ball. That is most definatly a red card.

    The second ejection, to K, was a good call as well. The player came in, studs at a very high level (playing unsafe), and struck the opponent. REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT HE KNEW THE OPPONENT WAS THERE. The studs caught him above the knee. There is no reason to have the foot in a vertical or beyond condition above that level. In a youth game, that would be a red card, in an EPL game, that would be a red card, and in the world cup, it would be a red card.

    Maestro's first yellow and second yellow are fair. In fact, it would not shock me if Maestro got a little more damning write up in the match report. He slid into the player, and then kicked him, with studs up. I would not be surprised to see a multi game ban for that. Waiting until the stoppage of play was a prime example of following the LOTG perfectly.

    Now.. as for allegations that it was accidental, he didn't mean to, etc. Referees are responsible for the safety of the players. Maestro knew what he was doing when he slid into the player after the whistle with studs high... and K knew that if his studs connected at that level he could do serious damage and possibly get ejected. These are not weakings or amateurs we are speaking of. The announcers on ESPN are biased, and stupid. What saddens me is that they know the rules, and yet still try to pin it on the ref. Their waffling was horrible. Right after the call, it's "Oh, that's devestating.. a travesty.. a joke.." Then they talk abit more and suddenly it's "Good officiating." The three, especially Wynalda, do a great disservice to referees by not being up on the current USSF policies and the over all LOTG.


    Alex did his job. In fact, he did almost exactly what the USSF has been wanting for a long time. He kept the studs down and tried to keep the players healthy. When he saw something that was getting out of line (the studs getting higher and higher in a contentious game) he red-carded for it.

    Life goes on.

    Jarrod/Redcard Leopard
     

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