I became a High School referee only several months ago, so I don't know if this was a state thing or just our chapter (seems to be state wide), but they had a program that if you were a new referee you were to receive a $300 rebate at the end of the season. Great idea to attract newbies, correct? Not exactly. First, I wasn't even aware of it until after I verbally expressed my interest in doing it. This was not well promoted (surprising, correct?) for those who might be "on the fence" to help cover the cost of their new short and long-sleeve jerseys, NFHS registration, background check, etc. Second, we were given two different dates to be paid and on neither date did anyone receive anything. So even when there are best intentions, predictably they are botched. Lastly, based on the number of people I see on the last email correspondence, it does not appear that it had the desired effect of significantly increasing numbers, for the reasons mentioned.
@PSURoss, I do recognize you from the DC United boards and I thought you'd know better than what you typed. We get it, all referees are terrible and you have a long list of calls they got wrong to back up your point. Now, go ask yourself: How does your rant help anything? How does your rant address the youth referee shortage? Those of us who have gone in the middle and the lines have heard rants like yours every week. How about you try doing that job and see if you get every call right all the time. See what it's like dealing with rants like yours.
These are the only responses we can give these people, but there’s no logic with referee rants. The same spectators who avoid eye contact if you say you need one of them to stand on the sideline and say when the ball goes out of bounds will be the first ones yelling at you for missing calls. Very few of them will ever step up and do it, and if you ask hem to put their money where their mouth is, they will ignore the question or pretend they never heard it like this guy did, dropping his rant then ****ing off to never be seen again here
@the_phoenix612 @AZOldRef how did the event go from an organization, treatment, and if it was worth it standpoint? If there is an event in a location that is more feasible for me to attend I might think about applying sometime in the future if it was decent. This weekend I ended up making around a thousand bucks from 16 youth water polo games over both days so that blew this out of the water
Once you're there, they treat you quite well. Meals were good, we were driven around the complex in golf carts, and we had a ton of engagement with PRO and national referee coaches. The assigning was sparse (on purpose) and I actually found that I enjoyed having fewer assignments than usual - it was fun to be able to go 100% on AR assignments without having the "save some legs for your middle" thought in the back of my head. Biggest bummer was that the shirts they ordered for us got lost in transit, so no swag Definitely an event worth attending if your travel costs make sense.
I echo those thoughts. Hadn't heard the bit about the swag, makes sense (I was curious why no shirts). One thing that stood out to me - I had two middles during the event. A ref coach showed up for a half of one, a different coach watched a half of the other. I thought this was cool ... often at ECNL events if older refs are on a match we don't get much attention. Only so many ref coaches to go around and if I was in charge I'd focus on the younger / up & coming / regionals as well. But it was nice to get feedback. I've always found the mentors to be encouraging while giving solid, constructive things to work on. I'm local so no travel costs for me. Met a lot of out of state people who all seemed to be enjoying the experience.
That’s good that it worked out. I heard a story from a ref I worked with in MLSN who went cross country to Maryland for an event last year or two and he said they spent an entire debrief evening yelling at everyone’s fitness because a few refs got hurt. I guess like everyone said, you really just have to have a certain mindset to go. When you factor in the travel there and back, time out of your day, having to go home showering, etc., I don’t even view reffing fewer than minimum 2-3 consecutive games as worth it to go even when it’s local unless you get paid a ton. How many days did you guys go and what did you do in all the rest of the day when you weren’t on games? I would feel like a waste just sitting around
Thanks to both of you for sharing your positive experience at the event. PLEASE do not take this personally, but can you provide specific examples of things you've learned at this event as a result of the referee coaching? The reason I ask is because whenever I personally ask fellow referees what they learned at these types of events, they always have to think about it and provide vague answers with no specifics and seem offended that I even asked. When I was a "lowly" Grade 7, I was assessed twice a year and when fellow referees asked what feedback I was given (pro or con), I gave specific examples such as, but not limited to: 1) "You were too close to the play on the foul call early on" 2) "You're too stationary on the corner kicks." 3) "You do a great job of putting out the fires, but could have gotten involved earlier in the game by doing XYZ." 4) "On your advantage call, wait a second or two longer than you did, even though you were eventually correct". I could list numerous other examples, but I think you get the point. With specific examples, you can make young referees here feel if it's worth the plane cost and hotel fare for future similar events that have referee coaches. With no examples and simply stating that "everyone had a great time" (which I'm sure they did), I'm not sure what exactly was learned and if it's worth for non-locals to attend. I hope I am not coming across like "Debbie Downer".
I'll take a stab. From an organizational standpoint, I think the pre-tourney meeting was actually engaging (or at least Mark Geiger's part) even if it was voluntold. The tournament/showcase was pretty standard. 1 hr before match check-in, park at Reach 11, the complex is split into two so just like @the_phoenix612 mentioned they had carts to chauffeur us around to one set fields from HQ. They had ball chasers and organization peeps to help with hunting down balls, and operational stuff (sub passes, water at midfield or if we needed to call showcase directors or HQ which we had to on a match I was on). Medical watching most fields for head injuries and also helpful towards referees for minor aches. As mentioned pre-tournament expectations were 1-2 games. Of the 6 days I attended I had 11 matches (which is normally a lot for me). One day I did have a 4:00 PM and 8:00 PM and 12:00 PM next day. With a 12:00 and 6:00 PM the next day followed by a 8:00 AM. Those days are kinda rough by the time you get your coaching (if you have it) get back to the HQ turn in paperwork it leads for a late night and then early morning. Treatment I'll say the food was pretty solid, better than subway that's been left out all day. As well as a ton of healthy options and each day in the morning they had hot Starbucks coffee and bagels (which I thought was nice). The unruly parents mostly stayed home. Coaches were just there to coach (most games didn't matter), college coaches were present so it was a tool to help remind players "act like you've been here before" to impress the D1 college coach or he's taking his notepad and onto his next field. My was it worth it... In my experience for me, it was worth it. I've been to DA events, MLSN, Regionals etc. I was expecting what the tournament promised which was coaching on 3 matches (1 whistle, 2 AR's). I instead had coaching on 6 matches. The quality of coaching to respond to another poster was very solid. Even echoing what @AZOldRef said the coaches spent the time on some people that probably were not going to be working in the league. And genuinely seemed to care to give them stuff that'll work for them. One example, we have a local guy who traveled he is a typical HS referee. Not very fit, don't think he played much but a huge desire to learn. He got very good matches and got ton of feedback compared with some of the young whipper snappers, who also went, but didn't have coaches. Not only did they bring the PRO referee coaches but they had the US Soccer National Referee coaches on top of Rick Eddy and Sandra Serafini both being there. Did it make financial sense for me (I could've stayed home and worked a local tourney + my 9-5 and made more money) but for my goals with US Soccer and beyond it was positive. Also I networked a bit to be able to do some officiating outside my normal state. So that may pay dividends and be very useful down the road. I actually disagree with this for a couple of reasons. 1) The coaching as with most good coaching is very specific to the individual. What might be useful coaching for a 2nd year 29 year old, won't be useful for a 6 year 18 year old, won't be useful to the 10th year 32 year old. 2) There just observations and not a full formal debrief 3) Going back to the first point a bit but everyone is on a different journey and career. Would my advice that I got be helpful for you? An example I'll use is everyone is taught for positioning the diagonal, then you start getting more education you learn about the staying in the left and making a S, then you get coaching to where you need to be ahead of play and position with 12-15 yds away. How useful is this for someone reading this from a birdseye view. I'd also counter and say not everyone had a good time. I know some peeps didn't have a good time whether they got hurt, poor performances (there were a few), to some people realizing they weren't as good as they thought they were. My coaching for where I am at in my career was 2 points. A) for me to be mindful of fouls to think of next phase of play, as I continue to more professional levels, it's going to be more challenging to sprint and catch the next phase of play and can burn me B) my match was pretty lopsided. The coaching advice was to address more strongly FRD/DR. Although, I did address but not super loud. For B) I addressed it publicly in the 1st half (coach didn't see that bc they were only watching one half) so I shared some context but they made the point. For A) I mostly do amateur matches which the coach spotted and he said "just remember to adjust from adult matches when you come to a youth event".
Can you provide specific examples of things you've learned at this event as a result of the referee coaching? Some specifics I got - When talking to players during a challenge, sometimes I say the generic "be smart / I'm here" stuff, sometimes I'm specific "don't hold, let go." One feedback point was to not do the latter (I've heard from other ref coaches the specifics are ok but this mentor said no). Winger advancing on attack gets bumped, I wait/see, he gets bumped again, I call the foul. Feedback was to call the first one as he was hemmed against the touchline with 3 defenders there. Similar thing, defender has back to goal & takes a solid thump around midfield. He's able to absorb the contact and play back to a teammate. I said, "I see it, careful there, red has the ball, let's keep playing." A quasi advantage / keep the game moving thing. Feedback was to just call the foul. General point was possession doesn't equal advantage which we all know. Good reminder. There were a few other points about moments in the game. I agreed with 90% of what the mentor said (there was one thing about positioning where I thought I was deep enough, maybe the mentor was right and I was further away). On the schedule - 1 game Wednesday night late, 1 game Friday morning (hustled back to work after), 2 on Saturday with a big break between (I'm about 25 minutes away so easy enough to go home). 2 on Sunday with a 2 hour gap. Not crazy about that part, I took a nap in the car between games. To be fair I had to turn back Wednesday / Friday games due to high school matches. If I was from out of town I would be less excited about the game count. I heard a few people had 3 games in a day but 2 per seemed like the standard. As mentioned just about everyone I talked to from other states was breaking even or losing money on the event. No one seemed to mind, the refs I talked to were jazzed to be there. To each their own, I suppose. Hope that helps.
Thanks to @frankieboylampard @AZOldRef @the_phoenix612 for your long detailed description about the event. I never really doubted much that the event in itself wouldn't be worth it from a gameplay and referee coaching standpoint, really just the financial imposition put on out of town referees. It makes sense for people really trying to move up, but some of the event details would really turn me off. I do everything I can to avoid schedule gaps even when I'm local. If I had huge gaps in my schedule with only a few games a day at an event I self-funded traveled hours to get to and got a self-funded hotel for, I would be quite pissed off. At least if they were financing things, the gaps would be annoying but wouldn't really be a killer. But obviously I understand why they give few games and big gaps in between. If you guys (not sure if frankie is local) weren't local, would you have attended knowing what your schedule was and travel costs would be? Seems like both of you specifically said that "only if your travel costs make sense", so maybe you lean "no". I've always been told that you shouldn't verbalize specific things like fouls if you aren't calling it, especially holding. Then if the player loses possession and you don't call the foul, they'll start yelling about how you said it was holding, why aren't you calling a foul!??!?! Just keep it general. Mine is usually just saying "careful, careful" no matter what's going on. You are letting them know there could potentially be something there, but you're not specifying what it is. If you don't call a foul, the offended person can't point to anything you said, and if you do call a foul and the fouler gets upset, I just say "hey, I said be careful, I gave you a chance". ALSO it might be EXTREMELY pedantic but I would avoid the phrase "be smart", then you have a player who could get offended saying you called them stupid. I was told that a long time ago. Yeah this is by far the most important thing, too many people equate possession to advantage, even coaches when you call the foul for them. What was the context of what fouls you needed to adjust from adult to youth level?
Thanks to both of you for such detailed responses. It's certainly not the deer-in-the-headlights response I get when I ask what was learned. From the few who were able to personally give me feedback on these types of events, that was the common complaint about contradictory feedback/opinions, but I suppose that is understandable.
I don't see this as Debbie Downering at all! My main points of feedback were: On incidents below the threshold of a foul but in need of management, consider the full spectrum of response from stopping play to interject to doing a drive-by verbal warning (I had an incident where a striker made minimal contact with a keeper while running back from an attack. I thought it was about to spark an incident so I hit the whistle, interjected myself, and restarted with a dropped ball. Assessor suggested I could just tell the keeper to hold the ball for awhile so I could yell at the striker) If a trainer is late responding to calls for a head injury, use the whistle more aggressively to get their attention A small tweak to my body positioning when entering the final third to more reliably keep the AR in my peripherals For me, I learn as much or more from watching and being on crews with highly experienced and professional officials on high level matches as I do from the formal debriefs and coaching, though. Again, that's hard to come by at home.
Some thoughts on events in general and what people have mentioned specifically. At events there are 3 main learning opportunities: feedback from a match (personal or other crew members), class room sessions, and watching other refs. When it comes to game feedback, there is a range of coaches. You will get conflicting feedback eventually and you might even here something that is old and considered 'wrong' for how the game is to be called now. I learned most from here in my second phase of going to events. Class room sessions depend on the skill of the presenter. I've sat in presentations where it is 30 minutes before the first clip is shown. The class room is good for getting everybody in line on a specific type of decision eg handling vs not or deliberate vs deflection. I currently learn the most from this. Finally you can watch other games. This works best with a more experienced referee to talk about what is good, what could be different, or what could be better. You can only get feedback on so many games, but there is a lot more time to be watching. I got the most out of this early on, mostly because I didn't have the skill to recall what happened during my own games after the fact and this was in the moment. It sounds like someone got the differing opinion. Earlier in a referee's career, I'm just happy that the referee is talking to the players letting them know what is and isn't okay. Better players (or adults) don't want to hear about how they are getting fouled but it isn't called. Eventually one will turn around and say "Just call the fing foul then!" Eventually we scale back the talk because if we do it too much, it becomes white noise and the players don't hear us. Additionally we only want to talk if we really want to be heard. Mark Geiger is a former high school teacher. If there is ever a presenter that should be good holding a room's attention, it is him. I know there might be rules about where you are allowed to be while a game is going on, but if you can make friends with a ref coach to follow while they watch a game, you can get 'feedback' except it is live for someone else providing a different perspective. If you are friends with the crew, they might let you sit in on the debrief and you can hear different thought processes. All these are good opportunities to learn while all catering to different learning styles. I'm glad everybody here enjoyed their time on site. I was told something earlier this year that I've taken to heart. "There is always a better referee." With that in mind, I try to be the best assistant referee I can be and try to not worry too much about where I am in the rankings of referees. @the_phoenix612 hit me up when HFA starts back up. I need to get back on some of those games when they resume and I'd love to work with you.
Many times I question the point of your posts ♂️. At this point, I tend to ignore them bc to be honest, I really could care less about water polo or how many YC you have given. The guy raises a valid concern about how he worries that teens with impulse control may go off sometime because of poor calls and your inclination is not to listen to what he says but to attack him and make him un welcome. He’s a parent and a coach and he has a fair point.
I've been to several events in the past. I've been a local at events and an out-of-towner at events. I've been mentor/observer at events also. I'd say, specific to the large gaps between games, you end up appreciating the gaps and fewer assignments. There are several reasons: 1. Fewer assignments allows you to give more effort, both physically and mentally, in games. This is important because there are PRO and USSF coaches watching AND college assignors, college coaches (yes they watch and talk about referees), and your local MLSN or Academy teams tend to notice where you're ranked also. You want to be giving effort and showing your best at all times. The kids are playing 3 games over 4 days max. 2. The MLSN paperwork doesn't go away just because you're at an event. That takes time to complete and there's a time constraint to submit the paperwork. It has to be done before that team's next game, which could be the next morning. They track the goals, assists, and cards for awards, etc. They review player stats too, some of which comes from referee reports. This take mental energy from the referee and you don't want to do this after your 3rd game finishes some 8 hours later. 3. All the procedural items are there at these events as well. Pregame meeting with your referee crew, which is often guys you've never met or seen before. you don't know their style or ability level. And you have to mesh yours with theirs while also not compromising your style and goals. The pregame player check-in takes more time than you think at these events. There's always a conflict or issue that arises. Next thing you know, you're running to the field to get the game started and that looks bad to everyone. Believe me..... EVERYONE pays attention when the game starts late cuz the referees arent there cuz they had to change jerseys. 4. The post-game debrief can be long sometimes. The coach wants to give you some feedback quickly right after your game because he/she is running to the next field right away. They've watched 8 other referees already and can't remember off-hand which game you were on if they wait until after your next match. There's a lot to pay attention to. Remember, these events can last 5-10 days. Dallas Cup is 9 days long opening game to Super Group final. GA is upwards of 9 days. MLSN Playoffs is 10 days. There are no "dud" matches to coast on. Your body absolutely cannot handle doing 3 games per day, back-to-back-to-back like you can at some local scramble tourney.
I noticed that a few of the initial posts about this event were made by @the_phoenix612 and @AZOldRef, who both called out the financial aspect of the event, but both ended up attending! I don't believe either of them faced that financial burden but it's quite funny and ironic regardless. For me, this was never supposed to devolve into an argument about the other things this event provided. I was sure the coaching would be beneficial and that they would treat the refs fine otherwise. That getting fewer games should have you perform better. The entire point was just about the financial burden. Even after the posts above describing for the most part how good those parts of the event were, which is definitely good to hear, it still doesn't change the unfortunate issue where the refs attending have to shoulder so much of it themselves. Even though it's idealistic, it's still a little disappointing to see an event where PRO (and apparently even NCAA) could scout up and coming referees being unable to provide some help with travel stipend or double occupancy in a crappy motel (which is pretty common at least in my area, even for low level tournaments) to try to get the best they could. And mentioning the game count was just a way to say that refs shouldering the financial burden wouldn't even have a decent payday in game fees to make up for them. Anyway thanks to the users for describing the benefits of the event. I will keep that in my mind for the future. Hopefully this thread can move on to other elements of ref shortages we face in the new year.
I appreciate the tips and examples our Arizona friends provided regarding referee coaching/mentoring tips. For those of us who do invest time at fields observing and developing the next generation of officials, these examples provide some real-world evidence for tips (that we must obviously tailor to experience level, time for feedback, etc.) that we can share with referees to make them better. It was also refreshing to see some positive examples of what we can do to address the referee shortage. Unfortunately, this thread (understandably so) has a lot of negative examples of what is keeping officials from joining or staying. While those are valid and need addressed, I think it's really important to identify the positive things we can do to develop the next generation of officials to encourage them to continue in this avocation.
He was one of my instructors during the annual recertifications when most people never heard of him. Mark deviated from the usual script and gave an example of a play where everyone in the stadium knew there was a SFP, except him (obviously pre-VAR) and went over how proper positioning would have avoided it. Other instructors come across as infallible, while he came across as just a regular person like us. In another case, he purposely picked younger folks in the hall to measure out 10 yards. Other instructors would have insulted them and provided lame jokes, but he was charming and brought one of the individuals back out on how to properly to do it (and not have your back turned). No one was bored, had everyone's attention and folks walked out learning something. One he completed his portion, the rest of the session was a snoozefest. Anyone still getting this type of instruction nowdays in their recerts? On a Zoom call this year, there was a question that most here would consider not very intellectual, but he didn't skip a beat and answered it thoroughly without hurting feelings. No offense to Christina Unkel, but Mark would be phenomenal as a LOTG expert on TV because of his charasmatic ability to connect with people and ability to understand what his target audience is. 15 years ago, I had Mark Geiger doing the recerts, a place to go to yearly so I can ask follow-up questions at recerts (no stupid online videos) and was a Grade 7, getting assessed twice a year with great feedback. Nowdays? I'm getting squat. Is this the top 5 reason for the referee shortage? I don't know. But I can say that when folks feel they have no one to turn to, they are more likely to stop doing something they initially enjoyed. In the early days, local assignors became mentors for young up-and-coming refs and would be recommended to the State for more challenging matches. Nowdays, they couldn't pick them out of a lineup. I asked several months ago on this forum what changed, even though there are less referees now, and didn't get a response. I took a liking to one of the very young referees this year who is either better than or comparable to folks when they were at the same young age, who are now officiating at the highest levels possible who I've worked with and we've all seen and discussed here. His concern and the families is whether anything learned will be worth the cost and flight and hotels of these types of events. Thanks to the 3 referees who took the time to type up detailed responses, I was able to share with him the experience there since he is not on this forum as now it's up to him to make that decision. At this point in MY life, my goal is not to make stupid investment decisions that will force me to work longer instead of breaking even at an event. For much younger folks, and those from affluent families, their situations are different and will be willing to break even for the reasons discussed. I must say that when I was assessed twice a year, some were folks were also assignors. In most cases, I received an email weeks after about working one of their games, but usually declined because of the distance. I'm hoping if he elects to do these events, the opportunities to get out more and be seen will give him the exposure he needs and a better chance to succeed.