Rebuild after Copa, 2 years before the big show

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by Eleven Bravo, Jul 2, 2024.

  1. nobody

    nobody Member+

    Jun 20, 2000
    I would not be opposed to something 4-4-1-1 ish.

    Balogun leading the line with Pulisic behind. And that still leaves 4 midfield spots for Gio to fight for. It's just a fact that not every player will get to play exclusively in their best or most preferred position, and for me maximizing Pulisic and letting Gio fight for minutes in a variety of roles makes more sense. Or you could play with Balogun leading and both Gio and Pulisic behind as your attacking trio and fill in behind them, but I think Gio and Pulisic would struggle to share that space and if I gotta pick one to be the priority, it's Pulisic.
     
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  2. The Clientele

    The Clientele Member+

    Portland Timbers
    Jun 25, 2005
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I’ve concluded the “golden generation” moniker is pure hype. We are not that deep and our best players are not a step ahead of some other USA teams of the past 25 years…

    Gio, getting playing time or not, should be on the team - maybe not always starting - based on pure talent. We simply don’t have many players that talented.
     
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  3. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    #178 Clint Eastwood, Aug 8, 2024
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2024
    Are there people who actually call it the "golden generation?"

    All we can keep doing is investing in players and keeping the assembly line moving. Keep the trend upward.

    The challenge is that YES we now have a starting XI of all players in Europe. Which we certainly didn't in 94-95ish. But the number of players truly excelling at big clubs is limited. And when we're trying to break into the top 15 or so in the world, that's what we need. We need 11 Pulisic's.

    We saw it against Uruguay. We have good central midfielders. Really nice. But Uruguay has better ones. Valverde of Real Madrid and Ugarte of PSG.

    Japan has a really nice pool of players in Europe. Same deal. They have a really nice roster, but also have the same issue we do. When push comes to shove in big events they're knocked out in the round of 16 like we are.

    We can think of 2nd tier Euro nations the same way. Denmark has nice players. Switzerland has nice players. Austria has nice players. But when push comes to shove, they lose to the powers with the elite players If you're Poland you can't win trophies with Lewandowski and 10 others. Even if those others are good European players. You're not beating France or Spain with that. And if you beat one power, you'll be knocked out by the next.

    Mexico has never advanced past the round of 16 at a World Cup when they weren't hosting (if my memory serves me correctly). They always run into Argentina one way or another!

    That's just reality. We can' live in this delusion that Ricardo Pepi is Kylian Mbappe.
    That doesn't mean we hang our heads in shame and give up. We just keep working.
    [And if people think the appointment of a different coach means the USMNT is going to advance to the semifinals of a World Cup with this talent pool...............they're also living in a delusion.]
     
  4. bsky22

    bsky22 Red Card

    Dec 8, 2003
  5. bsky22

    bsky22 Red Card

    Dec 8, 2003
    My recollection is that it started many years ago while CP was at Dortmund. The general idea was simply we have more high level prospects getting opportunities in top 5 leagues than we ever had. For the definition Police, the label couldn't be true because they were just starting out. As time passed and the next group of top level prospects emerged and the idea of it being more of a "new normal".

    I dont why some people are so worried about this. Why does it matter? It is almost as if some people are against this group because some people have labeled them. It sure looks to me that the best outcome has occurred and CP and crew weren't a spike in talent, but the beginning of increased level of youth talent that Europe now wants.

    Unfortunately, I see him as one of the few players that is irreplaceable at the moment. The only reason I wouldn't start him is injury, rotation (managing minutes), or some very strange tactical reason (and not even sure what that would be). I dont think most people understand what skillsets he brings to our team and how he makes playing so much easier for everyone else.

    I think MMA are the guys that are most at risk to coming off the bench and oddly Adams and Mckennie most likely to be the odd man out or need to move to a different position. Everyone knows I'm not a fan of MLS lifers. It isnt just because I never thought they were good enough, but their profile as a player. I am tired of the try hard player that is limited technically and tactically. This leads me to want to see a midfield of Johnny, Musah, and Gio.

     
  6. bsky22

    bsky22 Red Card

    Dec 8, 2003
    I was with you until the bit about CP and Gio getting in each other's way. CP's top trait is an attacker and Gio's is a distributor. This works perfectly for CP to play as a second forward and Gio as a amid. I actually think these three compliment it each other very well and could likely get a good understanding pretty quickly.

    I can't remember the last time I put out a lineup, so here goes with a focus on getting our most technical players on the field.

    --------------Balogun-----------
    ------------Pulisic----Gio----------
    Weah--Musah--Johnny--Dest
    --Richards--Brooks--CCV------

    Attackers - Pepi, Sargent, Tillman, Aaronson, Wright
    Center mids - Mckennie, Adams, Tessman, de la Torre,
    O/W Backs - Robinson, Lund, Scally, (Adams), (Mckennie)
    CB - McKenzie, Trusty, (Mckennie)

    I am starting to think that Adams and Mckennie might become utility players used to fill holes and tactical adjustments. Id mostly stick with this 24 man pool and aggressively try to integrate younger players as they break out.
     
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  7. Mantis Toboggan M.D.

    Philadelphia Union
    United States
    Jul 8, 2017
    I'd make some different personnel decisions (ARob at LWB, Dest or a Dest/Weah platoon at RWB, different CBs)...but I actually don't hate this formation. Seems like it gets most of our best players on the field and in a comfortable spot for them, and although I don't typically like 3 at the back for the international game because of its rarity in the club game (at least as a base formation, as a situational wrinkle is different) it actually seems like we have an unusual number of defenders and midfielders playing for clubs that use similar setups to this right now, particularly the Serie A and MLS guys. We also have the Gold Cup next summer to get guys comfortable in it and iron out any wrinkles.

    If we do go 3 at the back I wouldn't mind giving Tessman a look in the sweeper role.
     
  8. bsky22

    bsky22 Red Card

    Dec 8, 2003
    I forgot to mention I had a three man back line in my head from when Matarazzo was the supposed front runner. At first, I was thinking it would be easy to just swap out a central midfielder for CB, but would need to think through if having CP and GR playing centrally and not having the width of wings creates a problem.

    I emphasized technical ability putting this lineup together and didn't think I was giving up much in other areas vs other selections. Arob is incredibly limited on the ball and prefer to not be whipping in 20 crosses a game. I know it is unpopular because he is effective at what he does and has one of the better club careers currently.

    I dont care who the CBs are, but they better be comfortable on the ball and able to build out of the back. Richards is the only one I am really high on going forward and he didnt play well this summer. It is why it is why id be considering seeing if guys like Tessman or Mckennnie could make defenders in a back three.
     
  9. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Does the MNT really have support, tho? I don't know where I would find the stats but it seems to me that most national teams have more home support than the USA.
     
  10. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I might try this line up in October:

    Starters:
    ————Sargent——Wright—————
    ———————Pulisic———————-
    ———Tessmann——Maloney————
    Jedi————————-———McKennie
    ——Trusty—Richards—McKenzie——
    ———————Schulte———————

    Bench:
    —————Balogun—-Pepi——————-
    ———————Tillman————————-
    ————Morris————Busio—————-
    Wiley——————————————Scally
    ———Zimmerman———CCV—————-
    ———————Celentano———————-
    *Extra: Cowell, Slonina

    Injured: Paredes, Reyna, Dest, Adams, Weah
     
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  11. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    They do.

    As evidenced by the attendance in Kansas City.

    Big attendance figures for USMNT games are usually driven up by a sexy opponent.

    And that has nothing to do with Berhalter or whomever the coach is. It's always been that way. For 30 years.

    We can go into the reasons for it, but I think its self-evident.
     
  12. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    As far as the rebuild after Copa, this camp is the first step.

    And what people could have/should have learned.........................is that some of the players that you were so desperate to replace are actually the superior options.

    There were 5 changes in the starting XI to the Copa final. And that's not counting Dest, who's obviously our #1 RB.

    I'd say only one of those 5 covered himself in any kind of glory. Schulte.

    So that was a lot of backups. Guys, actually, who probably haven't played a lot together. I don't know if we've ever had Tillman, Johnny, and Musah start a game together in central midfield. I doubt it. But they played as if they'd never met each other before.

    No matter who we have at LB, he's a huge drop off from Antonee right now.
    Antonee was either the 1st or 2nd best LB in the Premier League last season (depending on who you asked). The LBs at bigger clubs all had injury problems or bad. So if you're one of the best LBs in the Premier League, you're actually one of the best LBs in the world.
     
  13. soccer_23

    soccer_23 Member

    Feb 6, 2014
    Agreed, the US men have had roughly the same level of fan support since at least the 2000’s. I would’ve expected it to increase a bit more over time, but that’s where we are. And most countries will see smaller attendances for random friendlies or matches against weak teams. In this case, the USMNT had *just* played in KC (literally their most recent match two months before this).

    What’s unique in the US is that if you instead had the US women playing in that stadium on Saturday, it’s likely a sellout, regardless of the opponent. Tickets prices are probably a factor in that, but we can definitely say weak USMNT attendance is not due a lack of interest in the sport of soccer in the USA.
     
  14. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is some gaslighting…. Except for the most fringe fan, no one was arguing that we drop anyone ~ except very few. I know that I’ve argued for dropping Tim Ream but that’s because it’s apparent that he’s rapidly on the decline, and any sensible person can recognize that he’s past his sale date. He had an incredible 22 WC. But that’s his career highlight. It’s damn near foolish to expect him to repeat that in 2026.

    That said, this game was always “just a friendly” in an abnormal situation where 1) we have the start of the European calendar which means it’s worth considering resting a player or not, and 2) we had an interim coach coaching. Seems to me, this was the opportunity to try out new players.Experiment should have been our priority. Not so much the result.

    Because we played Lund over Jedi, does that mean he’s in any real consideration over him? Of course not. But we need to identify who is back up.

    Same thing with Schulte.

    I’ll even give credit for trying out Tillman and Johnny from the start. And no, I’m not going to rule out Johnny after one poor game either.

    That’s about the limit of where I’m going to credit Varas.

    He should have tried a different formation and different playing style. His roster selection indicated a 442. But instead, we went with the same ol 433 and slow possession, build out of back, predictable Berhalter ball which has become so one dimensional that any team in the world can prepare for us easily.

    We learned NOTHING about our future center back pairing because we played Tim Ream. We should have tried out some variation of McKenzie, Trusty, and Richards. Add in CCV, Zimmerman, and Miles too. Center backs who are actually good contenders for the 2026 roster. So, that was a waste.

    I would have brought in Fossey at some point. We need to see who is behind Scally ~ since Dest is critically injured. That was a waste.

    For a friendly, Varas was late on some subs. That was a waste.

    We could have checked out or blooded some new talent just to help them get use to the program. We didn’t really do that. So, that was a waste.

    Overall, I come back to the point. I’m not angry we lost a friendly. I’m angry that we lost an opportunity to try out new players and new tactics. We could have won that game. And yeah, I’d be happy with a win. But if we won with the same thing we put out in Copa America, I’d say we didn’t look to fix anything. And, again, the most frustrating thing about this game is that we don’t look any closer to recreating a winning identity than we did during the disaster of the Copa America.

    We should be frustrated. The program is not in a good place right now.
     
  15. nobody

    nobody Member+

    Jun 20, 2000
    Rebuild is basically on hold until we have a coach. The last thing anyone needs is the interim coach thinking he's going to set the course for the team going forward. Kind of ridiculous how many games over the last few years this team has played with a temp coach. Just twiddling thumbs until a real coach is hired who will set a new direction. I was very let down by the lack of effort and commitment from the team against Canada, but it is a pretty weird situation where they are playing for a guy who will be gone after this camp and are just waiting to see what the new guy wants to do. I still think they should show up and play hard, the new coach will see these performances, is probably watching and will look at tapes of the game either way, so it's big blown opportunity to impress for the guys who got minutes. But, it is a weird treading water situation with no direction at this point. Any rebuild will commence once a new coach is hired and starts working with the team.
     
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  16. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    While I think this can be a factor ... I also think there are plenty of guys who simply bring it every game because that's who they are. Pulisic worked his ass off, for example. I doubt Clint takes this game off. I don't think players can consistently turn off and on like that, consciously. A guy who takes games off inevitably takes off games that matter.

    And more importantly, there's a long track record with this crew of simply not showing up for games. Usually, it's friendlies, like the Colombia one or yesterday. But they clearly weren't focused for Panama in the Copa. The first window of WCQ was largely just trying to get them to take their opponents seriously. The first Canada match in Nations League looked like they were hung over -- and they might have been.

    So yeah, playing for Mikey Varas as you wait for your real coach isn't the most inspiring game ... but my confidence level that they can switch it on at will is near zero at this point. The fact that they were not mad about the Copa result, not wanting to impress a new coach, etc., tells me this is more than Varas.

    I honestly would have been super happy to see one of our players go at some of the players clearly not working on the field yesterday. It's also very clear that our best players are simply not the team leaders we've hoped for.
     
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  17. Master O

    Master O Member+

    Jul 7, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The WNT has a history of success and multiple world cup trophies.

    The MNT, in contrast, has a culture of mediocrity from the coaches down to the players. They only win trophies because Concacaf teams are usually terrible and Mexico is a complete mess right now.
     
  18. nobody

    nobody Member+

    Jun 20, 2000
    Yeah, I think it is very telling that Pulisic is out most accomplished player and he shows up ready to work every game. There is a correlation there that many of his teammates don't seem to notice. And yeah, this is far from the first time this group has looked disinterested. If Poch doesn't see better from them I would have zero issues seeing some names not called in for a game or two. We can get beat just the same with lesser players and might get a surprise result with a group that shows up ready to work.
     
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  19. NietzscheIsDead

    NietzscheIsDead Member+

    NO WAR
    United States
    May 31, 2019
    NO WAR
    The team is 1-1-4 in its last 6 games, with its only win coming against a severely sub-par opponent and its draw coming against a Brazil team in a similar malaise.

    We may just as well call up a bunch of hungry MLS guys, which you can near-guarantee would match or exceed those results.
     
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  20. NietzscheIsDead

    NietzscheIsDead Member+

    NO WAR
    United States
    May 31, 2019
    NO WAR
    It’s also clear that they do not have the collective will to represent the people of the United States with pride, courage, bravery, honor, dignity, and respect. Otherwise they would be embarrassed by what they are doing and would be convicted enough not to continue embarrassing their country like this.
     
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  21. bsky22

    bsky22 Red Card

    Dec 8, 2003
    Thank God Berhalter set this program up to succeed for years.

    So do you want the MLS guys that all ultimately failed miserqbly under Berhalter, the ones that looked inept at the Olympics, or do we just need to dig into MLS players 101 to 200?
     
  22. comoesa

    comoesa Member+

    Aug 13, 2010
    Christen Press's armpit
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I guess the first big camp is the Gold Cup?

    At this point I just want pool to be healthy and available for selection. Guys like Reyna and Adams get better and start playing please.
     
  23. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There should be no doubt that the Gold Cup should be the A team event. Poch is going to want/need that time.
     
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  24. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nations League.................................

    Quarterfinal in November is Poch's first window that means something.
    Then the semi/final camp is March 2025.

    We have no idea how Pochettino will value the Nations League versus the Gold Cup.
    But he'll have several windows that "matter" before the 2025 Gold Cup.

    [We have no idea yet what our draw for that Nations League quarterfinal will look like. Could be a relative cupcake like T&T last time or could be somebody more challenging like Costa Rica. Depends also on whether we drop below Canada in the October CONCACAF rankings.
     
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  25. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If Poch is a predictable manager, which I don’t know if he is or isn’t yet, he’s going to go with an almost predictable roster selection in the next two windows…. In order to evaluate who ought be there and where he needs to start searching for a replacement.

    But there are so many questions…

    What’s not predictable….

    Who is our number one keeper? Heck, who are our top 3 keepers?

    Who is behind Scally? Fossey? Ledezma? Reynolds? Someone else?

    Who is behind Jedi? Lund? Wiley? Tolkin? Paredes? Someone else?

    Who does he think our top center back pair is? My gut tells me it’s McKenzie and Richards. But there are 4 other contenders: Miles, CCV, Trusty, Walker. (Hopefully he sees that Ream is too old).

    What’s his plan for the Gio and Adams omissions? Since they’re always hurt…. Maybe, you can add Sargent.

    What’s he going to do with our midfield?

    What’s he going to do with our forward situation?

    Does he plan on using a different formation?

    Are there still any players who haven’t been part of the picture who could play a bigger role? Such as, Maloney?
     
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