Real Madrid-Seville vs. Fire-New England

"even without skills, the players can run fast..."

Not with the ball they can't. If you don't have the technical skill that players on Real Madrid and Sevilla have, running top speed will just lead to lost passes, horribly wide shots, and a complete waste of a game. That's the reason why international soccer is played at a such a fast level, because the players have the skills neccesary to up the tempo. Everyone is coordinated at 1/4 speed, that's why Guitar Hero has a "slowest" setting for practicing songs, because you have to learn to walk before you run.

 

The same thing is true in basketball. The more highly-skilled team will want to push the tempo, while the lesser skilled team will try to slow it down and grind it out.

On another note, the lack of creativity and tactical awareness has to do with the fact that most of the players are Americans, and our youth coaching sucks. We produce a lot of robots with little understanding, but we won the u12 'Land-O-Lakes' summer invitational I often watch some of the more talented domestic and import players in MLS and wonder why they seem stifled, and then I remember that you're only as good as the players around you.

 

That was an unordinarily fast game though (Sevilla-RM). You don't get that every week in La Liga. RM plays like the Pheonix Suns or Dallas Mavericks. All offense and litte interest in defending. It was fun to watch last night. Not sure if they can win a title that way.

I still think one of the biggest issues MLS faces is lack of pressure to perform. If fans were getting pissed at players and coaches and the media was calling out substitutions and poor performances, we'd see better play in MLS. Guys would work harder to improve and the play would get better. We just don't have that pressure in our culture from youth levels up and no matter what sort of bonuses or league structure MLS uses it won't change that.

 

in addition to all the other advantages that games/teams/players in La Liga have over the same in MLS, a game in early May is very late in the season for RM and Sevilla. those teams should be clicking on all cylinders as they fight for 2nd place in the standings and a chance to catch Barca to win the title.

on the same date in early May, Chicago and NE are playing only their 5-6 games of the season, and not much is on the line at this point, and the teams are certainly not in mid-season or peak form.

also, soccer on grass is far superior to soccer on even the best of artifical surfaces. if 60,000+ people showed up for Revs home games like they do in Madrid, i'm sure the soccer would be and would seem much better.

 

good point. you're entire franchise has to make a comittment to that kind of thing to make it truly work

 

TV coverage has nothing to do with the how fast the game is in Spain. The players they have are simply some of the most fleet footed on the planet which is not the case for MLS. Keep in mind that the best athletes are not playing soccer in this country. The end result are players who may not be as fast as the NFL's Chad Johnson (who according to ESPN was a standout soccer player when he was younger and an EPL fan), and a slower paced physical league.

The lack of creativity demonstrated by MLS players falls sqaurely on the coaches-and not just MLS coaches. Coaches on all levels in this country are more in love with systems than any other country in the world. They don't encourage individual creativity. In fact I have seen cases where they have restricted it. That being the case you now have players who may not know how to create an opportunity.

Hopefully over time more og the country's best athletes will start to play and coaching improves. Until then you may want to get used to the disparity between MLS and some of the best leagues in Europe.

 

I think BigRed is fundamentally correct, though......even accounting for the fact that it's still early in the MLS season. A proper comparison would be to compare matches between bottom of the table teams in the EPL, La Liga and Serie A to MLS. Even if the speed does not equal the phenomenal rates of the Real Madrid Sevilla match, the points Red makes about the tactical issues and use of space and hustle are on the mark.

I'm routinely seeing MLS players unable to hit 30 yard passes; insist on passing back to their back line instead of trying to beat an opponent with a pass or dribble; displaying atrocious first touch skills; failing to move into space off the ball; on and on.....

You see first division teams (as opposed to Premiership teams) in England during the early rounds of the FA Cup who are playing better football than MLS teams. The points made about the poor level of coaching at the youth level in the US are on the mark. The average american player has not getting much better over the 11 years MLS has been around.

In fact, comparing some of the premier American players from '96 (John Harkes, Eric Wynalda, Cobi Jones, Chris Henderson, Tab Ramos, etc.) with the current generation of top level American players, I'm seeing no marked improvement at all. Perhaps the opposite. There may be more American players at a top level, but the level isn't high enough.

I suspect the upcoming FIFA Under 20 and Under 17 World Championships are going to put the mediocrity of youth stars in this country in plain view, despite all the relative hype surrounding players like Altidore, Adu, Bradley & co.

 

You arent just noticing this difference in pace now are you? Going from any other league to MLS does kind of feel like a let down.

As you mentioned, and others, creativity seems to be restricted and the systems are pushed far too much. I think it is a combination of factors, but in American sporting culture, I think it has to do with the desire to have set plays to run specifically all of the time. They relate everything to basketball, baseball, and the MLS.

I think it is why hockey doesnt catch on more down there. It isnt a game that can be broken down into 'plays'. As in soccer, it is all about creativity and IMO movement off the puck/ball. And thats one thing I dont see enough of in MLS is making the pass and getting your ass in gear to make that return pass upfield as the defender is drawn away.

Toronto did a much better job when they were playing in front of the loud home crowd and their adrenaline was forcing them to be imaginative and they were getting chances. In the 3 road games it really did just seem like there were 6 guys back at all times.

 

I think you're focusing on this as an MLS issue, when really it's a La Liga issue. When I watch Spanish teams, I see a tendency for quicker north-south play and not a ton of defense. It's not so much a product of greater skill as it is clubs adapting to the standard set by the Madrids and Barcas.

 

Hockey is doing just fine down "here".

 

The posters have made a fine summary:

1) Lack of skill or desire among the bulk of the MLS attacking players to take a defender off the dribble, even if to create some space or an angle for a pass or a shot (note that some very unheralded players like the Revs' Khano Smith and Wells Thompson did try it and were quite often successful in it yesterday).

2) An astonishingly poor movement off the ball. Sometimes on the long sideline camera view, you can see a midfielder blithely walking backward from an advanced position while his team is on the attack.

3) Poor shooting from the outside.

4) Excessive back-passing off one-touch when several touches and the advancement of the ball are required. This is coupled with an inability to hold the ball under pressure with the back to the goal.

5) An overly defensive offense where an attack is undertaken by 3-4 players with the rest just standing around midfield and twiddling their thumbs.

6) Generally pathetic crossing - lofted slow balls where a faster pace and a curved trajectory is required.

7) Poor heading ability with too many makeable headers being sent high (and wide) over the bar.

8) Lack of (accurate) one-touch shooting on goal from half/quarter chances.

9) General lack of ability to settle the ball under pressure, turn the defender, need to slow down the ball before doing anything with it, etc.

10) Feel free to add more.

PS. Fire-NE was better than 75% of MLS games ... watch Colorado or Dallas sometimes... brutal...

 

So you have proved that MLS is worse than La Liga? I would have never guessed that. Watch that CHI-NE game again when MLS is up against Colombian or Guatemalan leagues: you'll likely be wondering why all the fancy footskills of the latter two do not end up in meaningful chances.

In terms of "creativity", I bet even the lowest bench players were the most creative and skilled guys on their youth teams until they were 17 or 18.

PS shouldn't this thread be on the Fire board?

 

Not to veer off too much from the subject, but one of the main reasons why that is occurring is that the governing bodies of youth soccer in the US don't have any teeth when it comes to enforcing guidelines and standards from the top down.

USYSA, AYSO, et al, have some great guidelines and philosophies on how to teach the game and develop players that other countries use. But by the time you filter it down to the local associations themselves, they just pick and choose which guidelines and philosophies fill their desires and discard the ones they don't, even if they are essential for development.

Add in pressure from parents who want it done their way ("It's my money that's paying for this!") instead of a consistent way across all organizations that can be transferable as kids move up through the ranks, and more concern with winning games and tourneys over developing players, and it's no wonder why things are they way they are.

Not to mention that many parents who volunteer to coach can never be bothered to take free classes that are offered by the member organizations to actually learn how to coach, instead of thinking they know how to coach or just act as a chaperone to the kids.

 

I don't necessarily agree with this. I think it's an incorrect generalization to say that more skilled basketball teams like to push the tempo, while less skilled teams are more defensive.

In the NBA this year, the top five highest scoring teams (those that play with the fastest tempos) were: Phoenix, Golden State, Denver, Washington, and the LA Lakers. Yes, those are generally some of the better teams in the league, but I wouldn't say they were the five most highly-skilled teams in the league. Meanwhile, San Antonio was 14th in the league in scoring, Detroit was 21st, and Cleveland was 19th.

 

So you're saying RedBulls are one of the lesser skilled offensive teams in MLS?

 

That game (Real vs Sevilla) was significantly enhanced by the fact that both teams were playing for their season's survival.

I've seen Real play plenty of times this year and the game this weekend was an anomaly of sorts. Not disputing that they have great players, etc... But someone kidnapped Capello before this game and replaced him with someone interestingly nuts. By the time his team started playing good soccer, he had two dedicated central defenders on the field... with both wingbacks playing in Sevilla's half. And Sergio Ramos had no position. He just went wherever the Hell play dictated (which he does normally, I admit). But the team was just different than its usual. Diarra came in more, Torres made more runs up Alves' side than I'd seen him make in his last probably 5 games combined.

The point being... All the skill in the world can be there, but in a normal Real game... They can be boring as hell. Any team, regardless of the skill, has to have the reason to attack and go forward. Some teams have it as their natural manifesto... for others, they need their season to be on the line.

It's hard to get that urgency a month into our MLS season.

(Also note: Save for the last 10 minutes, Chelsea lacked this even though their season was on the line, simply because Mourinho elected to concede until the last 10 minutes when he decided "maybe we should try to win afterall. Much like Capello, Mourinho's tactical decisions can change his team's entertainment value 180 degrees.)

 

1. EPL stadiums for the most part look smaller, not as wide thus making for a faster game, maybe? Mexico for example, stadiums look like they go on forever and wider than the pacific, on TV the players look like ants, not to mention the altitude in which they play, as far as technical skill and strategic creativity on the field it is because of the coach's vision of his players and his style of play ( tedious possesion, long ball or kick ball, etc. )case in point CDCUSA has an open field play precise passing and possesion to go forward strategy, galaxy has the same and others.

2. I think it depends on the level of confidence a coach has of his players which then begs the Q. what do they do at practice and do they have personnel trainers to improve skill which without a doubt helps in maintaining posecion all in all the quality is improving and can't help but improve and if it doesn't then coaches are accountable because that is why they get paid, example: Bruce Arena, gone, after dissapointment at world cup and lack of preparation, no excuses, Real Salt Lake coach, gone, could not inspire a strategy that would translate on the field that showed any kind of competitivenes at its highest level. Hustle! Some players that i've seen just don't hustle and take plays off they belong in the AYSO "where everyone plays", no disrespect to them, everyone will start somewhere, however at club level and higher in the 1st game you should be competing your asssssss offf!!! no excuse for a lazy effort on behalf of some of these so called pros and trust me they are all over the world, pre-modonas that believe that they have arrived and become comfortable and lazy athletes on the field and off, call them out!

3. I believe MLS is improving, however, grass fields, SSS (get out of those rediculous NFL, MLB stadiums), real professional refs, and better TV, radio,and print coverage, will help bring a more consistent knowledgeable fan base, because these are things outside of the organization you follows control you must insist on these from your local and national TV, radio, print outlets.

 

I always hear people mention the "system" excuse about why american-born soccer players aren't as talented as their international counterparts -- that they grew up in youth leagues where victory was more important than individual development, but is that really any different than other youth sports leagues in this country? Like AAU in basketball - the best teams usually also have the best college prospects. Or Babe Ruth baseball teams - the teams that win typically also have the best players that go on to be professionals (not little league so much, but Babe Ruth or high school age).
Or maybe this just shows how different the sports are?

Also, why is it when US soccer teams play second fiddle to Europe the reason given is the players in the US grew up with the "team system" concept over individual flare, but when the US basketball team filled with NBA All-Stars loses to Puerto Rico or Greece it's because the US players are all about individual flare and don't know how to play a team game?

I still think the number one reason US soccer players aren't as good as Europeans is simply the interest level in the game. How good you are is byproduct of the level of competition you play against and even at a junior high school level the best athletes in this country typically will choose a sport other than soccer to focus on while in Europe they don't. It's all soccer all the time. Or maybe rugby.

 

I watched Chelsea vs Arsenal then went to the game in New England.(now watching a game on TV and seeing a game in person are two totally different games IMO) But.. The pace didnt seam "that much" different until say the last 15 minutes when Chelsea started to really push it.

The game in Spain is far different than the game in the USA as well. The play styles are very different.

You do realize that most of our Under 20s and under 17s actually... usually do quite well. Btw.. Atlitdore will have no problem with any of those.. Hes a big kid, out muscling full grown men in MLS, he wont have a problem getting aerial balls on younger less physically developed teens.

Yeah, thats pretty much what I eluded to in my first response. Thats why La Liga teams doesnt usually do so well against more Physical english teams. (barcelona doesnt count)

Hey now.. Ralston made a pretty sweet move yesterday in the first 10 minutes or so, pretty much schooled the guy on him then sent in a damn good cross. Have to give props

Thats not really true... Look at Detroit. They are all Defense. They wont the NBA title what 2 years in a row?

Yeah, I touched on that in a previous response to a quote but its so true. When Chelsea turned it on in the last 15 minutes they were fun as hell to watch. Very much unlike there typical bunker down and counter attack game plan.

I agree with every single point you made in your thread. I just wanted to expand on this one. I think quite honestly it has to do with the fact that most americans grow up playing 2 or more sports. Myself in High school I played Soccer in the fall, hockey in the winter and baseball in the spring, whereas Europeans grow up playing Soccer 365 days a year. Thats just not as common here. Growing up, Every single person I knew played more than just soccer. My hometown didnt have football so it was soccer or track. But even those that were very good at soccer, played basketball or Hockey or wrestled in the winter, and played baseball in the summer. I cant think of a single person from my high school team who played soccer all year around.

However, when we were all 14 or so, we went over to a tournament in the netherlands and did just fine. played 3 games won 1, lost 2 by a total of 2 goals. didnt get out played or out skilled. That makes me believe its just about the total focus to one sport vs spreading everything out.

 

Good summary Sidefoot, but I would like to point out some exceptions, from the ONE game I was able to catch most of from this last weekend (RSL v. NYRB)(despite having the direct-kick package, I'm traveling, alas to locations without much coverage).

As to #2--"Astonishingly poor movement off the ball"---on one NYRB goal, Altidore's movement up front created the space for the goal scorer, as noted early and often by the commentators, whose praise for the run far exceeded the praise for the goal itself, probably justifiably.

As to your #3--"poor shooting from the outside"---note Klein's blast from about 30 yds out for RSL's first goal (I think it was).

So, there are bright spots.

 

I hate to say it but even the relegation zone teams in England seem far more skilled than MLS teams. I think if we ae ever able to get rid of parity and we have 3 or 4 really good teams, those games will be better. In MLS you have some guys make clever passes to guys who don't know what to do with the ball. The MLS all star games are decent because you have good players passing to good players passing to good players.

 

"I hate to say it but even the relegation zone teams in England seem far more skilled than MLS teams. I think if we ae ever able to get rid of parity and we have 3 or 4 really good teams, those games will be better. In MLS you have some guys make clever passes to guys who don't know what to do with the ball. The MLS all star games are decent because you have good players passing to good players passing to good players."

Have you ever watched Watford?


Bottom teams in EPL...

Watford, Charlton, Wigan, West Ham, Sheffield, Fulham, and Manchester City.


For my money, West Ham is the only team in there that is a "skillful" team, much of which comes from Carlos Tevez, who at this point in his acclimation could start at any team in the EPL.

Watford is so bad it's not even funny... Sheffield has a certain workman's appeal, but not a very entertaining and super-skilled club. Charlton has one guy who is fun to watch, the rest of the team is pathetic. Wigan as well, one or two guys who have some skill, but largely just a pathetic side. Fulham has some skill guys, but a few of them are American ironically. Manchester City is the most offensively inept team I've ever seen. Their only exciting player is DaMarcus Beasley, American again... Their arguably most skilled player Barton most likely will never play for them again.

Now once you go up a few more... Newcastle, Aston Villa, Blackburn, Reading, Bolton, etc. Those teams are loaded on a skill level compared to an MLS squad.

 

To that list of skills lacking, I'd add "poor first touches and lack of understanding of the importance of the first touch and what should be done with it." I'm always noticing MLS players trapping the ball underneath them or making a blundery and pointless first touch, even when not under pressure. Rarely is anyone setting up the second touch with the first or checking back to the ball and then settling it five feet further back and to their left or right to set up their turn. Atrocious first touches would be the first thing I'd work on if I were a coach.

I actually thought the Fire-NE game was pretty fast, all in all.

 

Well, New York, being one of the point leaders, is obviously way ahead of the curve.

Plus it has a decent group of Euro experienced professionals (Reyna, van der Bergh, Mathis, Kovalenko and soon to be Angel) that are playing a fairly inspired ball for Bruce Arena.

A super-great point.

Let me add a dove-tail - often when an MLS'er takes a step away from a nearest marker, he ceases running as if a player out of his line of sight has moved to another (non-football) galaxy and is no longer a tangible thread to repossess the ball. Whereas a "normal" attacking player would accelerate into an open space, a typical MLS player would slow down and frequently be tackled.