Real Madrid and Franco

Good work sir.

 

This is something where you have a real case and you can also mention the registration and naturalization stuff. How Real Madrid could have 45 players on their payroll. The naturalization of players and the ancestry clause.

How referee Leo Horn had thirty golden Real Madrid watches in his home (now check which matches he had... the 1962 final yes, that's right).

The likes of Phil Ball, Honigstein and 'Sad Lowe' always very wrong here. On this point about Real Madrid and Franco.

Sad Lowe has been thinking too much about the fanbases and relationships with the authorities and clubs I presume. But I have never been fooled.

 

1939: the inauguration of "The Monument to the Fallen" outside Las Corts.

Ceremony and act held by Barça at the end of the season. Players and members of the Catalan team give the Francoist salute.

1942: Barça win their first Copa del Generalissimo, which was Franco's special competition.

1945: Barça wins the league. Their first during the Franco regime.

They won 0 league titles during the Second Republic (the regime before Francoist Spain took over).

1949: Barça turns 50. The Football Federation postpones the League for their anniversary and will declare November 27 as a free day for Barça to celebrate its birthday.

Franco thanked Barça for joining and wished the continuation of their success.

1950: Kubala, then one of the best players in Europe, is signed by Barça. Different historians and journalists explain how the Franco Regime and the Football Federation helped in his signing.

The dictatorship facilitated the paperwork and the nationalization of the player.

1951: Agusti Montal Galobart, then president of Barça, gave the gold badge he was wearing to Franco. It happened minutes after Barça lifted the Copa del Generalissimo. (3-0 vs Real Sociedad).

1952: Franco in person receives and congratulates Barcelona for the different titles won the previous season

1953: Francesc Miro-Sans is elected president of FC Barcelona. The following file from the Catalan Football Federation shows how the new Barça president belonged to the Falangists, Franco's political party.

1953: Barça win their second league title and third Copa del Generalissimo in a row.

1954: 15 years after Franco's regime took over, considered by many to be the roughest years of the regime, the list of Spanish League winners is:

1- FC BARCELONA 5 Leagues,

Valencia 3, Atlético de Aviación 2, Bilbao, 1, Sevilla 1, REAL MADRID 1.

1954: Massive act of laying the first stone of the Camp Nou. The then president of Barça publicly thanks Franco.

Franco was named HONORARY PRESIDENT of the INAUGURATION COMMITTEE OF BARCELONA.

1957: On September 27, the inauguration of the Camp Nou took place with the presence of Franco and his ministers.

Franco getting a tribute at the Camp Nou for his aid in inaugurating the stadium.

1961: Photo of the office of Barça president Francesc Miro-Sans, with the portrait of his ally Franco presiding over it.

1962: Barcelona was drowning in a debt of more than 250 million. The old Las Corts was still standing and its sale was the solution. The second reclassification arrived at Barcelona.

The lands of Les Corts were sold to the state and Franco ENDED Barça's debt.

1963: The Catalan team wins the Copa del Generalismo again, played at the Camp Nou.

Barça president Enrique Llaudet thanks Franco publicly and on behalf of the club. He also gives him a gold plaque.

1965: Third recalification granted to Barça. Joan Gich, got the green light from the Council of Ministers thanks to his friendship with Torcuato Fernández-Miranda.

Franco himself signed the document. Some 200 million went directly to the boxes of the FC Barcelona.

1966: Franco receives the Catalan team. Barcelona wants to thank Franco's intervention, which saved the club from bankruptcy the previous year.

1968: Narcís de Carreras is elected president of Barça. He wrote an article dedicated to Franco in "La Vanguardia" on "Día del Caudillo".

The motto that the Camp Nou wears today "More than a club" has its origin in a speech by the Francoist, Narcís de Carreras...

1969: The Francoist, José Solis Ruiz, at the Camp Nou. Solís was Franco's minister and played an important role during the civil war and was a well-known Barca supporter. "Mr. Solis has many friends among the directors." "I predict Barca to win 4-1"

1970: The government grants the Fútbol Club Barcelona a free subsidy of about 45 million pesetas for its sports complex.

1971: Barça wins its ninth Copa del Generalísimo. It is the team that has won the most Generalissimo cups during the Franco regime together with Athletic.

Remember, that's Franco's very own competition.

1971: The Barça board pays homage to the dictator for the help (more than 50 million, non-refundable) from the Regime in the construction of the Palau Blaugrana and the Ice Palace.

Franco is named honorary president of both campuses.

1972: Barça striker Bernardo Cos was able to play as a "community player" for several seasons in the Catalan team thanks to a false passport obtained with the complicity of the club and the regime.

1973: Barça signs Cruyff, the best player in Europe and the most expensive signing in history at the time.

Between the president of Barcelona an Cruyff, on the top, the statue of Franco.

Barça wins the League in addition to defeating Real Madrid 5-0.

1974: The Franco government awards Barça the highest distinction in Spanish sport.

1975: Franco dies. During the regime, Barça won 20 national titles (no one won more Generalismo Cups than them), obtained 3 financial bailouts, decorated the dictator on several occasions, obtained a non-refundable grant and received the highest distinction from the regime...

 

They had to import Cruyff as cattle, was ineligible for European games, was illegal to play in the Copa until 1977 (thus also no CWC entries), and missed the start of the season. Franco his influence was waning, as you say. He died in 1975, became a democracy and open society in the early 1980s (after the final coup attempts had died out). Real Sociedad won league titles.

Then was suspended for five games in 1977 which made Barcelona lose the league title. His individual win percentage is the highest of anyone between early 60s and his own return as manager.

 

I found so many contradictions on your text, I might debunk it soon

 

I'm waiting for this

 

My reply will be season by season, whenever I say "same point" etc. Know that it's probably because your arguments were similar to the ones you sent at the beginning of thread.

1. The fact this has nothing to debunk the main point, since players are forced to do it in a military dictatorship. Let's look at the history of The Monument to the Fallen and see how it was located 50 kms far to Madrid Spaniards’ everyday landscape was full of new elements that attempted to make permanent the memory of the war and of Franco’s victory: the Arco de Triunfo in Madrid; the monument to Onésimo Redondo3 on the Hill of San Cristóbal (Valladolid) and the monument erected to General Emilio Mola4 near Alcocero (Burgos); monuments commemorating battles, such as that erected in the ruined town of Belchite (Zaragoza) or the one in Bot to remember the Battle of the Ebro (Tarragona); statues of Franco in the big cities; solitary crosses on roadsides and in various locations to commemorate the dead of Franco’s army in an individual way; plaques in churches throughout the country in memory of those ‘Fallen for God and for Spain’, a reference to soldiers who had died at the front or had been killed in reprisals in the Republican rear (the so-called martyrs); and crypts and monu-ments in cemeteries that paid homage to the fallen of the war. And what encom-passed within itself the constant memory of this victory, reiterating the Catholic Church’s support for the victors and the regime in and perpetuating the memory of the war through the remains of the dead held within it, leaving no room for any doubt regarding its ambition to endure, was and is the Valley of the Fallen, in the valley of Cuelgamuros, some fifty kilometres from Madrid, on a plot occupying 1,377 hectares of the municipality of San Lorenzo de El Escorial. (source: https://www.researchgate.net/public...ley_of_the_fallen_a_new_El_Escorial_for_Spain) Since we can't argue about that fact when barcelona was a republican stronghold and madrid the base for francos eventually victorious Falangist rebels right?
   
   
2. Madrid lost to atletico de bilbao in quarter finals in 1942, also lost to atletico de bilbao once again in 1943 (won against Barca in semi finals 11-4 at total, when first leg was 3-0 to Barca) Barca and Madrid both loses in 1944, Atletico de bilbao wins once again. Barca loses to Atletico de bilbao in 1945, madrid loses to sevilla, and Atletico de bilbao wins it once again. Madrid was already weak these times, they lost to Granada which is one of the worst 3 teams of the league etc
   
   3.Barca literally won that league title with one point (against Madrid), also what's your point "second republic" , they still won the league title in 1928/1929 even if it's not second republic era as well. Beating madrid with 2 points, they reached to copa del rey finals in 1931/1932 and 1935/1936, also your logic doesn't work because there were 6 competitive seasons during second republic and not 9, and there were such movements as Josep Suyol getting k*lled, and even in that period Madrid won the title 2 times and were 2nd 3 times, also the reason they won the title is not the helps, its Josep Samitier, which is included in the website "Josep Samitier’s contribution to Barça was not limited to his outstanding performance as a player. In 1944, he began an important stage as team manager. With Samitier in charge, FC Barcelona won the 1944-45 Spanish League. It had not won the title since 1929."
   
   4.And also once again, its not Barcelona having good relationship with the dictatorship, It's the saver of Barca who's Salvador Grau Mora, which is in website as "Taking full advantage of this anniversary celebration and thanks to an intiative from member Salvador Grau Mora, the Club reinstated the four stripes of the Catalan flag that it had been forced to remove from its coat of arms. This was a clear demonstration of its desire to recover its identity, despite the limitations imposed by the existing circumstances. The massive turnout of Barça followers at the celebratory events that took place at Les Corts made it clear that the Club had outgrown the legendary stadium." Yet it's not all: "The colors of the 'senyera' In low and supersonic flight through history, the victory of the coup plotters in the civil war caused them to devise another settling of scores, consisting of turning Barça into Spain and changing its colors to red and yellow. Realizing that those were also the colors of the 'senyera' dissuaded the ideologues from the frustrated mischief. With Enrique Pyñeiro, Marquis of Mesa de Asta, becoming the vigilante president imposed by the military, Barcelona fans were saved from the name change, although there was no other choice but to swallow other mayoralties of the winners." "Back in Grau, our man was born in Benissanet in 1912. At just 19 years old he was already among the founders of the 'L'Avi' Macià party, Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya. Already with Lluís Companys as president of the Generalitat, Grau held positions linked to the Propaganda department before picking up the rifle and going to the battle front. After the defeat, he went through the Albatera concentration camp (Alicante) and, once he was freed, he opted for a low political profile and was very active in the anti-Franco resistance work." (If you ask who's that) (source: https://www.elperiodico.com/es/depo...-protector-cuatro-barras-escudo-barca-7304553)
   
   5.Firstly, it's not 100% real that Franco helped Barcelona there, the thought that he helped is explained as "Franco's government wanted to utilize Kubala's status as a refugee from one of the USSR's satellite countries to reinforce the regime's validity, thus helping Kubala obtain Spanish citizenship without delay. In the midst of the Cold War, Kubala's escape to the West was used as propaganda by Franco's government and was made into a successful film, The Stars Search for Peace, which saw Kubala and Samitier playing themselves." That info was created because it fits as the probability most, which still not Franco's own decide because it's because of Josep Samitier even if it happened, the probability of the info being false and contradicted is because, even Josep Samitier got in Madrid because of Franco (as a player) which is explained as: "In 1933, after a dramatic feud with the Barcelona management, an ageing El Sami dropped from the first team. Real Madrid, then called Madrid CF, took advantage of this dispute and were able to convince him to join the club. However, it was his secret allegiance with General Franco that helped Madrid to accomplish the operation." When he was also meant to help Madrid by being forced so.
   
   6.Once again with the same point, it's literally a military dictatorship, you can't act like they had a chance to not to do what they did, plus as I explained Madrid wasn't that strong, so again Madrid lost to Real Sociedad in both legs and 3-0 at total, which was a worse team than Barca that season.
   
   7.Once again as we said, this doesn't prove anything since Franco used football as a propaganda, this can be used with the same analogy Barcelona revoked the medals given to general Franco yet still the anniversary was celebrated (Barcelona's 50th) because of Salvador Grau Mora once again.
   
   8.Francesc Miro-Sans being Barca's president isn't a good thing when it applies to "Barcelona".. Francesc Miro Sans in 1958, was the first club president in history who was re-elected. Some of his decisions, led to criticism within the club. Ultimately, his position was untenable as president on 28 February 1961 and submitted his resignation Miro-Sans. His actions were already criticized. Also "Belonged to Falangists" argument isn't making you escape from the situation I'm gonna text: Miró-Sans was part of the FC Barcelona board chaired by Enric Martí i Carreto until September 1953, but he resigned along with the president and the rest of the directors after the resolution of the "Di Stéfano case", which frustrated the signing of Alfredo Di Stéfano by FC Barcelona, for the benefit of Real Madrid, and caused great controversy in Barcelona and in Spanish football. After the resignation of the board, a management committee chaired by the president of the Catalan Football Federation Francisco Giménez Salinas took control of the club. On October 5, a new management committee took office, made up of 10 former presidents of Barcelona, whose main task was to govern the club until the appointment of a new president.
   
   9.Once again, what I said in past debunks the same point
   
   10.Once again, Franco's military dictatorship was using football as a propaganda, also when it's military dictatorship you're forced to do that. Also Francesc was the president in that time, and you said he was in Franco's political party, which you contradicted yourself because you're using the argument as if Barcelona president is thankful to Franco because Franco helped them or something. Even if the president thanked to Franco while not being in Franco's political party, it still wouldn't prove anything anyways.
   
   11.Again and again, same point
   
   12.Same point
   
   13.It's literally because to use the football for his political ideas again, why would he let that otherwise? Other than all that thing is debunked with the same point again.
   
   14.All are with the same point
   
   15.Even before that time period, in 1967 José Plaza Pedraz became the new president of the Comité Técnico de Árbitros as in Absolute's text, and he said He said “Mientras yo sea presidente, el Barça no será campeón de la liga” meaning in English : “As long as I am president, Barça will not be champion of the league.” He was also player of Plus Ultra, team associated with Real Madrid. So how does it matter with what you said? The debunk you did is so weak next to first thread, (also he kept being president of it till 1975 which is all in the time period you talked in rest, and actually they only won 1 league title in that time period, leaving Madrid 8th in 73/74 which shows Barcelona was just stronger a lot, (so it caused that and couldn't be stopped) also that year (president Vic Buckingham period for Barca) it's said "1969 was a historic year, not only because of an epic victory, but because of the scandal caused by the referee Guruceta in the Camp Nou. In the Cup semi-finals, Barça were playing Real Madrid. Rifé tackled Velázquez and the referee awarded a penalty for a foul that had clearly taken place outside the area. The scandal was monumental" All the rest of the text is debunked with the same point again
   
   16.1971 and 1972 both are debunked with same points I told before, 1973 the Cruyff signing PuckVanHeel told about it well. Let's look at his text again "They had to import Cruyff as cattle, was ineligible for European games, was illegal to play in the Copa until 1977 (thus also no CWC entries), and missed the start of the season. Franco his influence was waning, as you say. He died in 1975, became a democracy and open society in the early 1980s (after the final coup attempts had died out). Real Sociedad won league titles. Then was suspended for five games in 1977 which made Barcelona lose the league title. His individual win percentage is the highest of anyone between early 60s and his own return as manager"
   for 1974, the same point once again. 1975, Madrid still won 1 more trophy in total, when they were actually not strong at the beginning, till Di Stefano etc. And I explained it before
   
   Now let's look at some documents on Real Madrid, Franco, Barcelona right? (by CHARLES UNIVERSITY IN PRAGUE FACULTY OF SOCIAL SCIENCES INSTITUTE OF POLITICAL SCIENCE STUDIES; the text will not only consider franco's time period) "The history of Real Madrid officially started on April 22, 1902, when the club was signed into the Registry of Associations. (González 2002: 20; Bahamonde 2002: 25) However, the club had been operating before that date. The official 100th anniversary book, published by the Real Madrid Foundation, states that the first official meeting of the directors of “Madrid Foot Ball Club” took place on March 2, 1902. Curiously enough, the official anniversary book does not mention the fact that two founders of the club, brothers Juan and Carlos Padrós, were of Catalan origin; they had the same background as Real’s longest adversary – FC Barcelona. It is interesting to note that other authors also avoid this fact (Bahamonde 2002: 17). It is clear that the rivalry between Real Madrid and Barcelona is maintained through various descriptions of the history of these clubs." (Such as Antonio Ortega in Absolute's example)
   
   "However, Bahamonde in his book on the history of Real Madrid mentions that at average of about 1.500 to 2.000 spectators were present during majority of the matches. (Bahamonde 2002: 31) Today, many mention the connection of the Madrid club to the regime, in fact; they argue that the club preferred to be associated with the ruling sphere on multiple occasions. The first most commonly used example of such a connection, took place even before Franco’s rule, when the club accepted the title “Real” or “Royal” from the hands King of Spain Alfonso XIII. The royal patronage was officially awarded on June 29, 1920. (González 2002: 67) However, Real Madrid was not the first club to hold the title “Real,” but as a well known Spanish football correspondent says “it put grand importance to it.” (Relaño 2012: 41) It was a symbolic act of being connected to the major institution of the Kingdom"
3. 
   "Another important development was the inauguration of a new stadium in May 1924 in a district called Chamartín. The location was chosen a bit far from the center of the city at that time, as Chamartín was not yet a part of Madrid-city, but a village itself. The location and the size of the stadium presented a certain confirmation of a great potential for growth of the number of fans of Real Madrid. “The stadium would accommodate as much as 16.000 spectators, later in thirties it would be enlarged to 22.000 spectators.” (Bahamonde 2002: 64) It is true, after the construction of the new stadium - the number of spectators grew constantly, presenting Real Madrid with the much needed financial stability and support. (Bahamonde 2002: 45) It is obvious to conclude that the stadia play crucial rule in the world of football. The transition into professional football team came with the purchase of José María Peña for 6,000 pesetas in 1926, which prepared the team for the rivalry in the league. (Ball 2011: 124)"
   
   "The initial idea to build a new stadium for Real Madrid came in 1943 with the arrival Santiago Bernabéu as a new President, and already on October 27, 1944 the construction commenced with Bernabéu himself symbolically tapping the first foundation. (Fernandez 2000: 87; González 2002: 126) The lend off the Castilian’s mall was not a simple acquisition, nevertheless, thanks to Bernabéu’s connections with the banking executives, “he was already a drinking buddy of the director of the Banco Exterior and was a personal friend of Adolfo Suárez, later to become the country´s prime minister,” the task seemed easier. (Ball 2011: 130) As Ball continues, the purchase of the land and the financing of the stadium was secured on very favorable terms for the Real Madrid club."
   
   "The tender to build the stadium was won by the same company that had built El Vale de los Caídos, the monument to the victims of the Civil War, built by political prisoners of the Franco regime. The construction was programmed to take place in two stages. The first was finished in 1947, when the new stadium Chamartín was opened. Later, the second stage was planned to increase the capacity of the stadium and did not commence until 1953. (González 2002: 129) When the stadium opened, it was the largest stadium in Europe with space for about 75.000 spectators. (González 2002: 139) The goal to convert Madrid-city and Real Madrid into the center of Europe’s attention, at least with the construction of a grand stadium, was achieved. Afterwards, it was time to win Championship"
   
   "Due to the stadium’s size and favorable relations between Bernabéu and Franco, the stadium was often used for the regime’s events, such as for the 1st of May demonstrations of the syndicates. (Carreño 2003: 51) Moreover, as Burns points out, „for the remaining twentyseven years of Franco’s rule, the final of the Generalissimo’s Cup would be played there, with the exception of three years...“ (Burns 1999: 156) The last symbolic event in the history of the Real Madrid’s stadium happened on January 4, 1955, when the stadium was renamed after its current24 president Santiago Bernabéu. The club’s assembly decided to “recognize the work of the present president.” (González 2002: 164)"
   
   "Another important symbol for any team is the color of its jersey – this color remains the team’s trademark for the whole season but more often “stacks” for decades. That is even more a case for Real Madrid, which kept its initial white color throughout of all its hundred years of history. Moreover, it feels like Real will continue wearing it for the rest of its existence. The story goes that Arthur Johnson, the first professional coach of the team, picked white for the shirts as it reminded him on his favorite team back at home in England. (Ball 2011: 205) Because of its white shade, Real Madrid players are often called now - merengues or meringue."
   
   "Although this paper is dedicated to research and explains only the influence of football within Spain and Spanish society, nevertheless, Real Madrid was very successful, almost legendary on the international scene, during the Francoist years. It is hard not to mention its victories, same as the lack of such from Barcelona in the next section. Real Madrid won the first European Cup25 in 1956 and will be remembered forever as such. Moreover, the later five consecutive victories cemented Real’s legend in the European Cup. The first final of the European Cup was played in Paris on June 13, 1956, as French sports newspaper L’equipe organized the whole championship. Real Madrid was the only Spanish team qualified to play in the European competition, as only the winner of the home league was allowed to participate. Fortunately, Real Madrid won the 1954/1955 Spanish League and secured itself the debut participation. Interestingly enough, Barcelona finished second in that year’s League, five points behind Real. In the 1955/1956 European Cup in the final game, it must be said, Real Madrid played against French team – Stade de Reims. After the first half, the score was 2-2, but Real managed to pull off a victory with the final score 4-3. The next season, Real Madrid finished third in the Spanish League, and logically was not allowed to participate, nevertheless, the rules allowed the title holder to be included. Other Spanish teams, such as Athlético de Bilbao finished the League first and had a chance to play, while FC Barcelona was second."
   
   "With Real Madrid’s first victories, the regime had realized “its [Real Madrid’s] potential for propaganda and immediately started ‘the machine’ at its service.”(Carreño 2003: 50) The club provided the opportunity to give a new image to the country – victorious in sports and popular with public. It was the best public campaign the regime could ask for. Just as the minister of exterior, Fernando de Castiella, declared that “Real Madrid was the best ambassador we have ever had.” (Carreño 2003: 50)"
   
   "Real Madrid during franquismo managed to win the European Cup six times, more than any other team. Also it finished once, in 1963/1964 second. The victories of Real Madrid on the international stage are widely considered to have brought Spain out of the postsecond World War political isolation. The team was called “the most valuable ambassador for the country.” (Ball 2011: 126) As Antonio Ruiz concludes, “there is no absolute doubt that Real Madrid, after winning the European Cup six times, improved the image of Spanish Francoist state abroad.” (Ruiz 2010: 160) "
   
   "Santiago Bernabéu was the longest serving president of Real Madrid and to this day he symbolizes club’s historic glory: he set up the European Cup and Real Madrid was the first team to win it, he oversaw the construction of the club’s current stadium and secured Di Stéfano’s transfer, among other things. In 1912, Santiago Bernabéu started with Real Madrid as its player and continued through 1927. During the Civil War, he took the side of the Nationalists and “had been forced to flee to Paris from the gates of Chamartín after having been threatened by several of the club’s republican committee members.” (Ball 2011: 129) Santiago Bernabéu never forgot the treatment he received from the club’s committee members.
   Later, during the Civil War, Bernabéu joined the forces of the Franco’s forces as a young cadet and fought on the Catalan front. He said, “I was in the reconquest of Catalonia, the reconquest of an independent Catalonia for the greater glory of Spain.” (Burns 1999: 155- 156) It is very likely that from that war period in Catalonia he developed his apathy towards this region. Much later, in the summer of 1968, he declared to a Valencia newspaper: “It is not correct that I do not like Catalonia. I like it and I admire it a lot. Except Catalonians.” (Carreño 2003: 54) He had great love for Spain and everything Spanish, as long as it was Castilian Spanish. Bernabéu had been decorated in the Civil War for services to the Nationalistic cause” (Ball 2011: 128) After the Civil War Bernabéu came back to “the football family” and became the Club’s President in 1943, the position he held until his death in 1978. It is very common to draw parallels of Bernabéu’s presidency and the Franco’s regime, partly because of a large overlap of their “rule” – Franco gained power in 1939 and died in 1975."

 

Good overview and thanks for saying my reply was (almost) correct.

As I said, the likes of Lowe and Ball are very wrong here and I would even doubt their honesty and integrity. There are relations to protect and nurture.

This region where I come from is Barcelona territory, that is right (between 1960 and 2009, only one Barcelona title came without a Dutch manager).

That has made me to sometimes lean to the other side, go against the grain - and I never liked Xavi his attitude. The recent scandals around referees has some similarity to what Milan came entangled with from 1993/1994 onward.

But that does not take away that Real Madrid, and yes, before that also Atletico Madrid (Aviacion Madrid) had ties to Franco and the same Franco derailed other teams deliberately.

I am really 95% (if not 100%) sure Lowe, a batch of self-styled historians, are incredibly wrong here.

Many newspapers here (and this is no proof), reported already about this before the golden era of Real Madrid started.

 

Thanks, also actually sorry for using your reply as an argument without asking, I had no time, but it was a great reply so I had to use it I guess by giving credits. And yeah I agree with what you said there

 

Well I can agree that these greetings were forced due to the dictatorship, but presenting a golden plaque and receiving the highest honor in Spanish football at the time is somewhat curious. What you said does not refute (because it is not an argument but a fact) that Barcelona was helped financially by Franco. My text was never intended to exonerate Real Madrid or anything. It was just to show that Barça is also to blame in the registry. The culés make it look like poor Barça were robbed by Real Madrid during the French era when in fact the catalan club was the most successful in the period. I think that both Real and Barça were helped and it is also impossible to attribute the success of both clubs solely to Franco's dictatorship. Cruijff, Kubala, Di Stefano and Puskás all had the help of the Franco dictatorship to go to their respective clubs.

 

What do you mean "supposed links you tried to show"? These are all facts that occured. Don't try to rewrite the history. The evidencies are all there

 

Real Madrid was just helped a bit more, with naturalizations and such. It was the same as in other countries such as Romania, East-Germany, Brazil/Flamengo and so on. Yes, other Brazilian teams got help too but Flamengo was the regime team. Divide and rule. Same for East-Germany.

Real Madrid had the best Spanish players.

In the Copa del Generalisimo, without Cruijff, they were superior and swept Barcelona 4-0 on neutral ground. In the very same season, with Cruijff and Sotil, swept 0-5 on their own ground. In 1975 Real Madrid reached the final again, losing against Atletico after penalties, Barcelona with only Spanish players a quarter final.

This was all before Franco his death. His grip was slowly loosening as you say.

 

As I said, Barca even revoked giving medals firstly, but then Salvador Grau Mora, or the other names I told about made it happen. The golden plague and receiving highest honor in Spanish Football is something from I saw on Twitter from an account named "LFF" probably we most know that name. I saw thee newspaper etc on Barca's 75th anniversary which is in 1974, and Franco died in 1975. I didn't research about it that much but I don't think it's enough proof to prove that Barca was also helped by Franco as much as Madrid was, because you know I already explained a lots of things why Barca was looking like they were the main team which was supported politically, maybe the same points would debunk.
Also Barca financilly getting helped as I said is because Franco used football as propaganda, and these helps didn't work for that much thing, like Cruyff couldn't play, or I mentioned Kubala's signing, how it's not 100% as you said because there are so many contradictions on that argument as well. I also explained why Barca was succseful while even being against the dictatorship. I'm just trying to explain Madrid was helped much more, also you said "My text was never intended to exonerate Real Madrid or anything. It was just to show that Barça is also to blame in the registry. The culés make it look like poor Barça were robbed by Real Madrid during the French era when in fact the catalan club was the most successful in the period." when I also tried to debunk your arguments, and not only mentioning how Madrid was helped over your arguments which considered how Barcelona was helped, yet I respect your opinion on history, everything are not objective, I got more knowledge on that topic while debating this with you (I researched a lot), thanks for it and thanks for taking the time to read and respond.

 

Your mistake is thinking that I'm arguing something. I brought more information to add more context and enrich the topic. My entire original text has no opinion, it's just facts. For example: Messi won the 2014 World Cup Golden Ball = fact that happened. James Rodriguez should have won = opinion

 

If you're saying that Barcelona were the most successful team on Franco's era only because they were just better than the other teams and Real Madrid were successful in UCL only because Franco helped them, then you're applying double standards here

 

Yes you're arguing obviously? Telling the facts makes nosense if they don't apply to prove your point, you need to use facts that proves your point. And I debunked that the facts you told about doesn't prove the point

 

You're also contradicting, winning UCL and not league titles can be used with the same analogy of 2009/2018 Barcelona vs Real Madrid competition, (after Ronaldo joined so not considering
the Barcelona vs United UCL final) Barca won 7 league titles against Madrid's 2 titles, but Barca won 2 UCL's and Madrid won 4, using that logic won't make you prove your point.

 

I'm not. As I said, I was enriching the topic with more information and bringing context. As you yourself said, Franco used football as a propaganda and not only real Madrid but Barcelona also and the Spanish football in general were benefited by this

 

I don't see a parallel there. Yes, Real were more dominant continentally and Barça domestically on both cases but what it has to do with Franco's dictatorship benefiting both Barça and Real? Can we begin to talk about Barça and Negreira?

 

No you're literally using your infos to discuss, also adding more "facts" to first thread makes your reply avaliable to debunk for anyone? You didn't talk about your main point at the first thread but you just said it here "Real Madrid but Barcelona also and the Spanish football in general were benefited by this" which is same with "Real Madrid and Barcelona both were advantaged by Franco, not only Barca" so it's a discussing sentence to the thread. I'm open to debunk it. Plus no? Madrid getting helped with military dictatorship, and Barcelona getting used as a propaganda and not any assistance provided to them other than financial support (which is for propaganda again) both are so different things.

 

It's related because you said Madrid wasn't weak these times because of they can't be succesful in UCL and not League, then it's the same thing by using analogy "How Madrid is winning more UCL's and not more leagues, because having a UCL is harder"

Your point makes nosense there, Madrid was weak in the League in both situations we know.

 

And which other help would you want other than money? Moral support? Lol Regardless of whether it was for propaganda or not, the fact is that Barcelona benefited financially from Franco's dictatorship.

What? Where I said this? Did you understand what I said? I said that "if you think Barcelona were the most dominant team domestically ONLY because they were the best team and Real were successful in the UCL ONLY because of Franco, then you are applying double standards". Both Real and Barça were helped by Franco and both teams were strong. Therefore, you cannot attribute the success of one only to the merit of Franco and to the other, only to the merit of the team.