Trying to take into account stadium situations... This shouldn't be construed to be eqivilent to expansion suitability because that includes many other factors. 1. Rochester. No question this team would consistently average 14K per season. Question is, could they average 17K. 2. Portland. One of the higher attended A-League teams & a great venue if they can ever get rid of basebol. I think this would be a good expansion of the national footprint. 3. Philly. I see no reason why Philly couldn't match the league average in attendance - or match DCU's attendance. One problem has been the utter lack of pro soccer in this city for some time. So I kind of wonder whether MLS is on the radar screen. 4. Tulsa/OKC/Edmond/Broken Arrow. Could be another Columbus - especially since there aren't other pro sports. I think the exhibition matches are a great idea to help guage/increase interest. The Edmond figures are impressive when one considers the ticket prices. The question is, will an OK team in drag down the league's attendance average. 5. Houston. My fear is Dallas or Colorado-type crowds in such a large stadium. Given the heat & humidity of Houston, I worry a team here will not draw especially well. However, there is a big population base, the stadium has lots of amenities (never underestimate the entertainment factor) & joint Texans-MLS marketing could help to sell tix. 6. Seattle. I was disappointed with a crowd of 17K to see an attractive MNT. I wonder what the crowd would have been had it been Japan, but who cares? Japanese fans aren't likely to attend MLS matches. I had Seattle rated higher initially, but let's take a look to see how the Sounders draw this year. 7. Miami/So Fla. We all know what happens when you pair a good/great squad w/ a crap owner. I think this market must stay on the list. 8. Tampa. Same as Miami, but a notch or two below. 9. Cleveland. If it ain't the Browns or a trendoid Indians team, fuggedaboudit. 10. Toronto. Sorry, I don't see it. Look at the A-League figures - they are pathetic. ------- Others A. Minnesota. Big wild card is the Twinkies. If BS can ever get his wish to contract the team, this could be a promising market. I think they are over-saturated w/ teams at this time. B. Detroit. I've always been enamoured w/ a soccer team playing at Tiger Stadium. This is a much better sports town than Cleveland - plus a better spaced between Chi & Clb. C. Charlotte/Winston-Salem. Terrible pro sports area. Let the 'necks have their NASCAR. D. San Diego. Maybe as the 19th or 20th team in MLS. I think this city is A-League for now. E. Trenton. Trenton Makes. The World Takes. Let's leave it that way. F. NYC II. If the salary cap were ever unshackled, this could be a top choice. As it stands now, let's see if the Olymplics can build a suitable venue. G. LA II/Orange County. There are worse ideas - like Winston-Salem.
retractable roof, a/c, custom... If you click here and go about half way down on the first page, there's a post from me that contains numerous links to some helpful info about Reliant Stadium, including info and pics about its retractable roof: https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37429
Although not a totally accurate indicator, you can look at the average attendance figures for the old NASL Tulsa Roughnecks as an answer to your question. Tulsa averaged over 14,000 per year (1978-84) and record attendance of 30,821 for a game against the NY Cosmos. Tulsa's population has grown since then and soccer has just continued to get more popular in the city so I think it is safe to say that the averages for an MLS team would be at least as good as 14,000. This would put Tulsa about mid-pack in current MLS attendance. (MLS Averages: http://www.newsok.com/cgi-bin/show_article?ID=1006762&pic=none&TP=getsports)
Revolt: Have you ever BEEN to Charlotte, North Carolina? Your statements are rather offensive - seeing as how the city is only the second biggest financial center in America in terms of controlled assets. Some of the rhetoric is a tad bit thick. Note that this is not to imply the area is great for pro-sports. Just think a bit before you run off offending an entire state.
See also: Assets under management, deposits, HUGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY. Talk to Bank of America or Wachovia about it.
I spent an entire summer in Winston-Salem - 1985, if I remember correctly. Nice place... Should have added college basketball as a greatly supported sport down there. I'll rephrase my statement to be RURAL rednecks. The urban folks I met were, by and large, a perfectly reasonable bunch.
Yes there are rednecks in NC. But I guarantee you there are just as many, so called 'rednecks', in CA as there are in NC. I think an MLS team in the Triangle area would actually draw very well if someone were to put up the money and build a sweet SSS. /sarcasm Of course us poor schmucks in North Tallahackey could never hope to even approach that pillar of MLS attendance in Northern California. /sarcasm
I personaly would like to see a team in everyone of this cities, someday. For right now I would take any city that has the right combination of long term investor/owner, stadium and fan support. If there is no new investor there can't be an expansion. If I would be an owner/investor would base my criteria on: 1. Stadium (availability existing or site to build on) 2. Market (larger market would attract better sponsors,fan support,media, on the downside competition from other major sports) 3. Support ( fan support,community,local politics, media how bad do they want it ? ... this is very important, and might consider smaller market if the fans are there and would be the only major game in town) I would like a team in Philadelphia just because of potential large market and prximity to NY/ DC would create a nice competition. I would then take a smaller market Tulsa/OKC/Rochester.
Philadelphia and OKC should get bids for 2005. Philadelphia completes the eastern 4. NE, NY, Philly, DC. These fans already hate each other - and are close enough to travel to the other stadium to tell them they hate them. This would be the MLS East In the central - Dallas, OKC, Chicago and Columbus West - SJ, LA, Colorado, KC Unless we go single table, I think this would be great or put Philly in the East and OKC in the West.
On the Portland Front... One of the Timbers Army very own has had a Op/Ed published today in the Oregonian: http://www.oregonlive.com/commentary/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial /1049460995217020.xml This is THE paper of Portland so it should get pretty wide exposure and it should be interesting to see the responses.
Exactly!!!!! Instant Rivalry... The hatred is practically a birthright among us living in the east. As a Philly area resident I look forward to the day when I can boo DC, NE, & NY from my seat in Lincoln Financial Field!
Re: retractable roof, a/c, custom... In other words, Revolt, if you've got problems with a potential Houston MLS team playing in a huge NFL stadium, then they'd be playing at Reliant Stadium, which has a retractable roof and is air-conditioned. On the other hand, if they were playing at a facility in Houston that was more "appropriately sized," then they'd be playing at Robertson Stadium, in which case you'd have to worry about the heat and humidity. Your choices in Houston are either "stadium too big" or "too hot and humid," not "both."
I went to a year of high school in Charlotte, and have been in Raleigh/Durham for the last 20 years. I'm not offended. Winston-Salem's bid was a joke. Charlotte, if someone with money were interested, might work, but I wouldn't want them at Ericsson Stadium. Interestingly, the first professional soccer game I ever saw was an ASL(?) final in 1981 or 1982 when the expansion Charlotte team won the league title. I looked it up once on Litterer's site. Anyway, I would think that Raleigh-Durham would make a better market for MLS than Charlotte, but I would put both of them further down the list than some of the other choices. A Triad (Greensboro/Winston-Salem/High Point) team would draw hardcore fans from both Charlotte and Raleigh-Durham, but we're talking 100s, not 1000s. The one thing I haven't seen in North Carolina is anyone willing to put up the money necessary to buy/support a franchise. There's an undeveloped plot of land on the grounds of the SAS Soccer Park in Cary (where 7,000 seat SAS Stadium is) waiting to be turned into a 20k seat main stadium. All that's needed is someone willing to invest in MLS and pay for construction of the stadium.
If you go to three divisions I suppose you'd have to realign this way. There is a built in rivalry between Oklahoma and Texas, but it would confuse me being as KC is east of Dallas and OKC. Plus, it's not good to break up Dallas with their existing west coast rivals. I would prefer to go 6-6 for now for a few reasons. One, don't break up existing rivalries. Two, don't create a situation where we will have to realign again later and re-create rivalries. And three, the 2-table format is closer to the prefered 1-table format. I think the closer we stick to it, the easier it will be to switch to when we have 14-16 teams. East: NE, NY, DC, Chicago, Columbus, Philly/Rochester West: SJ, LA, KC, Colorado, Dallas, OKC/Houston Just my two cents...
Better idea would be to tear down Tiger Stadium, and put a new stadium on the same spot. Plenty of room for at least the main stadium, and maybe a smaller one next to it. But there may not be the room for one of those mega-complex deals with 18 fields and tennis courts and running tracks and... I like the idea of the "corner" of Michigan and Trumbull still being used for sports, albeit a different sport than what was played there. Couldn't you put a team in the new Comerica Park (Tigers) or Ford Field (Lions) while the new stadium(-a) is/are being built? Finally, I like the notion of "what is a better sports town" than the technical stuff (stadia, television, blah blah blah blah) that has been the norm. Simple: "Sports town?" "Yeah." "Get a team?" "Yeah."
What about St.Louis don't they have a good soccer following. In the late 70's to early 80's St.Louis was drawing good crowds for soccer games (Indoors of course). I seam to recall the St.Louis was once on the list of possible expansion teams what happened.
Oh yeah, right. NC has only had some of the best college soccer programs in the US (UNC, NC State, Duke, to name a few), and have had for decades. Those so-called "rednecks," even the rural ones, have probably forgotten more about soccer than you'll ever know. Charlotte, or the Triad area would be pretty decent MLS possibilities, IMHO.
Re: Re: Rating Fan Support for Potential Expansion Cities ...until you find out that all those "great sports fans" who pack the stadiums and arenas think that soccer's a sport for "fairies and foreigners." Then whatcha gonna do? Some of those so-called "crap sports towns" might end up being great soccer towns, if given the chance.
There needs to be a team in the Southeast. I don't exactly know where, but dang, we have to travel a looooooooong way to see an MLS game. It's not like there aren't any big cities either.