Re: Chicago Attendance Disaster Deepens Do we need a class on the distinction between raising an issue in a constructive way and being an alarmist? And of all issues, I think this one proves the point. Chicago is about to get a multi-million dollar stadium that will be better than CCS, probably at least competitive with PHP and will probably automatically put the Chicago franchise in the black, and you come here proclaiming (as opposed to bringing up the subject) that the league is going to fail because of a dip in attendance? Hm?
Re: Chicago Attendance Disaster Deepens That and lets ignore the nice corporate sponsor they just landed for the stadium
Re: Chicago Attendance Disaster Deepens And I'm sure that just like Dallas (who recently announced Coors as a sponsor, to add to Dr. Pepper, Texas Credit Union and others), there will be other sponsors. Neither compares to the $70 million that AEG got for the HDC, but then again, does it really have to?
Re: Chicago Attendance Disaster Deepens Don't forget, it was for the entire complex and AEG agreed to buy $40 million worth of materials from HD. Sachin
Re: Chicago Attendance Disaster Deepens It was for the entire complex, but it did not matter financially that they bought the materials from HD. They would have had to spend that money somewhere to get the materials. Andy
Re: Chicago Attendance Disaster Deepens Interesting - I didn't realize about the materials. Well, then. Our $25 mil deal with Pizza Hut DOES compare. Uh oh - but look at our attendance! OMG! The League is going to DIE!!!!!
Re: Chicago Attendance Disaster Deepens Thomas brings up a concern about fire attendance that is genuine so I won't put him down for doing so. First it is true that the fire is saving their advertising budget for next years move to the new stadium. They will need extra money next year to educate people where bridgeview is located. Second non-saturday night attendances are usually not good in Chicago.However there is the fact that fire attendance refects a downward trend around the league and that is a concern.I think the league has to reverse this trend by upping quality.
Re: Chicago Attendance Disaster Deepens No doubt AEG will make money off the Fire's new stadium, but I think there's reason to question whether the Fire will be profitable next season. It's not easy getting former fans to come back, so unless the Fire are able to draw a large number of new fans (from the outer suburbs?) to their new stadium, I think they'll be fortunate to average 15,000 next year; especially if Guppy and the Fire continue to emphasize corporate sales and sponsorship, and neglect marketing to the everyday fan.
Re: Chicago Attendance Disaster Deepens Well, that is a legit issue, and well said. (Note to Tom - this is called constructive discussion....) I think it will in part depend on how they market to the venue and how they price. In Frisco, I'm not too worried about attendance because (A) the FO seems to be working the city well, and the city seems to be responding, and (B) they have kept the prices very reasonable. Add to that the fact that the current set of fans (a hard core of 8k) that will most likely move up to Frisco with the team, and you may not have a sell out every game, but it will be pretty full. Yes, as of now, it is too soon to tell if the Fire are going to be profitable next season. Part of that, though, is the fact that it isn't going to be ready for the start of the season and they will have to lose something to SF in rent and other lost revenue. Same for Dallas. But Dallas in 2006 will be profitable. Chicago in 2007 will in all likelihood be profitable. 8k for a mid-week game tells me that Chicago has a hard core of 8k that will come for anything that is a legit Fire match - the kind of fans that will show up with or without advertizing, as long as the schedule is published in the paper. In fact, I take that as a positive - that you have so many who will go out there no matter what. Hell, the Expos would have loved to have had that on a semi-regular basis, and that is MLB.
Re: Chicago Attendance Disaster Deepens But the fact is, corporate sales are worth far more to the bottom line of the team than attendance counts. From what I'm reading and hearing, CD Chivas USA has been an incredible success as a business. As a fan drawing soccer team, they suck eggs. But as a viable money making business, they're doing great. I'm not suggesting that an MLS franchise could survive long-term on crowds of 10k. But I don't think the attendance erosion is as big a business problem as much as it is a perceptive one. When MLS was renting, attendance numbers were much more viable numbers with which to rate the business health of franchises. As teams move into their own facilities where they control all manners of ancillary revenues, attendance takes on a different function. It's better to draw 18k/game than 12k/game. But that difference won't mean as much - in the short term - to the Fire than it would to say the MetroStars or DC United. If attendance stays low for two or three years, it does run the risk of impacting various sponsorships. That's when I would start to worry. Until the Fire finish the 2007 season, it's all pretty much meaningless - as far as I can tell.
Re: Chicago Attendance Disaster Deepens I'm not sure many (any) here have a problem with him raising the issue as opposed to how he is framing the issue. His first post was okay, his second was alarmist to say the league. Well, the downward trend can be attributed to more than a few factors: Poor weather killed NE's attendance early when they were playing well. (That is starting to turn around). Chivas' attendance has been pathetic. No "Adu" bump. Low attendances in San Jose and KC because of potential move rumors. Low attendances in Chicago as discussed here. Low attendances in Dallas due to similar issues as Chicago. DC is averaging 16k - good LA is averaging 22k - good Metro is averaging 16k - good (although yes, that is inflated by the England-Colombia game) Real is averaging 20k - good And overall, every team is over 10k other than KC and Dallas. Sure, we'd like the floor to be 12k and the average to be 16k rather than 9k and 13k, but once Dallas is in PHP, that will turn around some. Once KC's and SJ's situations are resolved, those situations ought to turn around. Now, if you want to point to a real problem, look at Columbus - they're in a SSS and averaging 11k. I know the team isn't good, but they have yet to sell the naming rights to the stadium and the overall interest in Columbus isn't strong enough to average 13-14k.... And Colorado makes me nervous - but we will have to see how they do in their SSS when it is up and running. Is everything peachy keen? No. But the ledge is generally going in the right direction. And to a large extent, let's see how the reserve squads improve the level of play in the league before we go making any other large, expensive moves. Right now, MLS has a good product that needs more infrastrucure. Come 2010, when the league is 16-20 teams, mostly individually owned, mostly in SSS - if we're not averaging 16k a game league wide, THEN let's worry. Until then, it looks to me like we're going according to the business plan.
Re: Chicago Attendance Disaster Deepens Really? That is interesting. Good for them. (Then again, like you point out, how long will those sponsors stay on if the attendances remain at 10k?
Re: Chicago Attendance Disaster Deepens Just for accuracy's sake, San Jose is one of three teams that has increased attendance so far this year (comparing the same number of home games in each year).
Re: Chicago Attendance Disaster Deepens Why would you ever want to ban comic eruptions - make that comic Krakatoas - like this?
Re: Chicago Attendance Disaster Deepens Kevin, I am sounding an alarm. I have no doubt that the Firehouse will draw some good crowds. New stadiums always do. But after a couple of years the novelty wears off. Remember, I was a Spurs fan, a Mustangs fan and a Sting fan. All 3 went under, even though there was a lot of optimism about all 3. Andy, I think Da Cfo was here when the shameful rep system was started. I could be wrong. Wasn't he carded and hounded off before there was a rep system, then he reappeared under Da Cfo? I think you pointed out that it was Oliver again. Oliver was a bit pretentious but he was a smart guy. I learned a lot from him.
Re: Chicago Attendance Disaster Deepens Your post makes no sense. You don't think that Home Depot wanted a guarantee of business in return for their expenditure?
Re: Chicago Attendance Disaster Deepens Whether you all like TF or not, I don't care, but it is a joke that they can't draw 10K for games in Chicago. Chivas is a disaster any way you look at it. They paid a premium to play at the HDC, and they are not recouping those dollars regardless of what "Andy's sources" say. Flanagan didn't say the league was in trouble, he called it an "attendance disaster". Well, that's what it is. The SSS model works precisely because you are getting 100% of the revenue from tickets, parking, concessions and in-stadium signage (which is sold to advertisers based on projected attendance numbers). Naming rights are a bonus if you can get them to offset your stadium construction debt, but the entire model rests squarely on attendance reaching certain levels. Despite the revisionist rationalizations spewed here on BS, this league's first and foremost job is to put butts in seats. Corporate sales disappear without fans to market their wares to. Relying on TV contracts leads to an NHL-like collapse, which MLS cannot survive. With all that said, I am a faithful (and hopeful) season ticket holder who sees a bright long-term future for this league. But I also realize that teams may have to fold or move, ownership will change, and the single-entity system that got this league through the incubation stage will eventually have to give way to individual ownership and the forces of the marketplace.
Re: Chicago Attendance Disaster Deepens After all, he was sorta-kinda right about the "Futbol Club de LA" thing all those years ago. Wrong league, but maybe his peerless sources and intuition were a little off that day.
Re: Chicago Attendance Disaster Deepens Kebzach, I have been to games but not as many as in the past. Work pressures and child care pressures have taken their toll. The MLS can still survive but we are facing big problems. All the facile answers have been shot down. Columbus is struggling with a nice SSS. I hope someone remembers to turn the lights off...
Re: Chicago Attendance Disaster Deepens Were it the case that MLS was aiming to be a league driven by gate revenues, I'd quit watching now, because they'll never, ever make it. Funny you mention the NHL - that IS (was?) a league that depended a lot more heavily on the turnstiles than MLS (or any other US league I can think of). The huge TV dollars threw it all out of whack, hence what you see (or don't see) now. Right now it's a moot point; MLS survives not on gates or TV, but the largesse of the money guys.
Re: Chicago Attendance Disaster Deepens MLS is being dumb cutting back on marketing like they have. It doesnt surprise me in the least that Chicago has bad attendnace if they have cut back on marketing. MLS isnt like the other leagues that get free marketing everyday being on sportscenter and the front page of the sports section. They are much like Minor league baseball, people have to be told when games are and given reasons to go to a game because if MLS doesnt tell them nobody else is going to.
Re: Chicago Attendance Disaster Deepens Bottom line is, this season's Fire attendance doesn't matter at all, just like this season and next season's Rapids attendance doesn't matter either. Teams can lose less money by not advertising and drawing less fans, so when new stadiums open, then they can worry about getting fans because it's only then that they control the revenue streams. And the Crew are having one bad year, of course that means the last five years of success mean nothing.
Re: Chicago Attendance Disaster Deepens Yeah - this isn't alarmist and part of your typical BS! Tom - if you are so concerned, go away, go far away. And now you can start your temper tantrum again about how some posters on BS are ruining the league b/c they run off jackasses such as yourself.