Maybe you didn't pick this up in Malaysia, but Aragones was asked to apologise and explain himself for his racist comment and his lack of apology to Henry. Instead he chose to launch a bizarre tirade.
Maybe you're not quite grasping what i'm saying. I did make it quite clear earlier that Aragones should've apologized. But he also wasn't proved to be racist. Thus global media branding him as racist, instead of merely an idiot, evoked his 'bizzare tirade' in self decence, where he constantly stated that he was not racist and that he had plenty of black friends, and that the whole thing was taken out of context. Which i believe is true. But as he poorly referred to someone of another country, and offended them, he should have apologized so as not to contribute to all the anger.
Couldn't disagree more - I firmly believe Aragones is racist and it doesn't matter how many black "friends" he rolls out it does not mean he does not hold racist views. Ever heard of Ron Atkinson? And yes, if Aragones had apologised properly in the first place (as the Spanish FA should have forced him to do as his employer) then there may not have been the escalation that we saw over the last few days. Although I believe that the fact similar chants were heard at the U-21 game disprove that....
Me myself am a black guy, ive experienced racism numerous times, ive been called a N1gger by non-blacks and it hurts. I play soccer and it hurts even more to know that people involved in this sport can act in such a way.. but you kno what? it happens. It not pretty no one likes it, but it happens... racism will never go away, but organizations like FIFA and UEFA need to use there influence and power to educate people and show them racism isnt right at all. actions must be taken.
I myself am black and what really pisses me off about the whole thing is how the Spanish media and government is downplaying the whole issue. It is just really disgusting and appalling what they are doing. I don't think england went into the game trying to incite anything and its ridiculous what the media in Spain is suggesting. Personally I think Spain should play its next couple games in closed venues, and the fans responsible should be found arrested and banned from all future visits. I really don't think anyone suggested that all spanish people are racist. You can be English and be racist or Italian, or french etc. Just about anyone can be racist. However i don't believe anyone is overreacting. What the fans did was wrong but what is especially wrong is that you have the Spanish government and soccer federation condoning and supporting racism amongst their fans. I thought that we as a society were taking steps forward, then sh@@ like this happens.
Absolutely... 100% I understand that a few a**holes can't be avoided and can bring a bad name on a country, but the Spanish federation's whole silence is deafening... They should be the first people to speak up and squash this.... Their reaction, or dismissal (it was a small % of fans) is bullcrap.. I hope they get hammered with repurcutions....
I really don't think it was taken out of context. I mean how do you expect it to be interpreted as? If he had just made the comment and then apologized, maybe just maybe it could have been seen as just a very stupid and idiotic mistake (even thought it wasn't) but when you're asked to apologize and you still don't? If he truly wasn't racist then he should have come out and apologized. I agree with one poster who said aragones should be fired. It would send a message to everyone involved.
On the issue of walking off the pitch, just got an e-mail off a mate of mine: "Just listening to news on Radio 1 - Rio has just said that the racist chanting nearly forced him off the pitch.... that contradicts an interview I read this morning where he says "I wasn't fully aware of it when I was on the pitch until I came off". Funny how he seems to have forgotten that he's said this."
What you guys are saying is not implausible, but... is it so impossible to believe that he could actually just be a stubborn mule? Some people are like that... there are those who don't want to cause trouble and apologize if someone accused them of something, and then there are also those who if they firmly believe they have done nothing wrong they would never apologize. Aragones could well fall into the latter category and not be racist. This is the problem. People don't know him, but they are already believing things about him. That could be what sparked the whole affair that ended in this mess.
The Spanish aren't racist. The only racist here are the english with their colonies and such (like Aragones said). I find it hypocritical for a racist country like England with a history of killing non-whites (remember colonies etc), now the press can go to Spain and bitch about Aragones and Spaniards being racist. They're nothing but hypocrites hiding their own sins. This is as hypocritical and dumb as if Germany all of a sudden started calling the USA warmongers and called for the USA not to attack Iraq, when we know from history that Germany is in no such position to tells us not to go to war when we know they're the biggest warmongers in history! oh wait it is happening, HYPOCRITES! This is as hypocritical and dumb as if France keeps complaining about the war in Iraq when they themselves have a little problem called the ivory coast!
Spain never had an emipre did they? That has to be the most badly thought out argument of the last 300 years. An to cite something vague from over a century ago is no argument either. Get out of the dark ages.
yep ,Don FC is a chilean .His spanish ancestors butchered the local tribes in south america . Not that that has anything to do with anything. I give Don another red square later just for a laugh I think.
I think the "discussion" is about the current situations. Colonial powers ruled the world at a time when ethics were not an issue. If you take Spain, we can go back to the time of the Reconquista - what happened to the Jews and the Moors? We are talking about the clash of culture that definitely has more than a touch of brute nouveau riche about it (just look at the cathedrals in Toledo, Segovia, Sevilla) completely wiping out a culture whose art in comparison (and in its own right) was much more developed and elegant from the architectural perspective (Alhambra simply has no equivalent). Los Reyes Catholicos were hardly the most tolerant rulers in the world, presiding over Inquisition and stuff, whereas, for example, the Granadian Khalifate was known for its religious and racial tolerance. We can dig up with destruction of Native Indian population, the exploitation of South America, the brutalities of Franco against his own people, not for being black but for being socialists. So, it is, perhaps, not wise to dig up history here to accuse the other side of being the racist ones as all colonial nations have history of it at one point or another. The question is - what to do about it now? Particularly in football. I've only been to one football match in Spain, to see my team Seville. I saw no display of racism, before, after or during the game.
My ancestors are German, and I already mentioned what they did. The racist chants in the match were a result of the 'politically correct to the extreme' english media attacking Aragones. The Ultras decided it would be funny if they made monkey chants during the match to get back at the english press, for their criticism of Aragones and spanish soccer when it comes to dealing with racism. This for the ultras is their way of telling the english press to go to hell. Is Aragones a racist? YES. Why? I look at the example of the english for the answer. The racist chants at english stadiums towards blacks from fans that had black players playing on their own teams. Someone mentioned the example of Chelsea fans taunting black players of another team while their own black player scored the match winner. What does this mean? Aragones is the type of racist that hates black people, but he won't show it. Aragones has black friends, shakes their hand, but deep inside he hates the black race. Think of the example of a white man working at a mexican restaurant. He can't act like a racist there or he would get in a lot of trouble and get fired. Iinfact he probably is friends and likes his fellow mexican workers at the restaurant, but deep inside he dislikes the Mexican race but at the same time he has some Mexican friends. Is there a term for this type of racist? I don't know, but I do know the world is full of them.
WHAT!!! This makes absolutley no sense what so ever!! So the Ultras abused Englands black players to get back at the English press.....oh, and they thought it would be funny! Oh My God! If this is true how dumb are the Ultras!! Sorry, how RACIST and dumb are the Ultras. But then again you could be talking out your arse!!
How did the press add fuel to the fire?? Was the fuel saying that racism was wrong?? Yes, yes, I can see it how this can stoke up racist abuse!!! fool! OK, I`m sure that there are some England fans out there calling the Spanish `racist scum` but they are a very small minority...........but the English media??? I dont think so...have you ever read a british newspaper? They can be the worst in the world but I dont think they can actualy put out a newspaper with the words `all Spanish are racist scum`. How can they work with the Spanish FA or their media when they refuse to admit to there being a problem!?!?!?!?! They even accused us of starting the incident of last night. Did we start the incident in the under 21 game as well?? All in all I am dissapointed with the spanish fans (the few...sorry few hundred that abused black players), the spanish coach for ignoring the situation, the spanish press for ignoring the situation and trying to blame us for it (WTF) and the Spanish FA for not even appologising straight after the game and for ignoring the problem for so long.
To be fair some of the Spanish pliticians HAVE spoken out. The problem I have with their reaction is that they seem confused among themselves as to what their position should be. As has been said a number of times, (although the penny doesn't seem to be quite dropping yet), the issue isn't what the crowd did or various countries ignoble past... even the present situation... regarding racism in football. The problem is what the football governing body DOES about it. I repeat, if this happened, (including his previous statements), in England Aragones would be sacked.
That it seems the media is trying to portray as though it was the whole stadium and players, funny how that happens, are changing their stories.
Where are they claiming this? Every peice of media coverage I've read acknowledges it was a minority of fans and I've yet to see one article claiming the players were involved. Most media coverage is centred on the apparant lack of condemnation by the Spanish FA (now seemingly happening, although I am still seeing quotes saying abuse "may" have happened) and particularly Aragones.
http://www.segundosfuera.com/SED2/html/carticulos/64932_1.shtml "Un total de dieciséis aficionados han resultado heridos por el enfrentamiento entre "hooligans", los hinchas radicales británicos, y los seguidores "ultras" del Real Madrid, antes del partido amistoso que disputaron en el estadio Santiago Bernabéu las selecciones de España e Inglaterra." "A total of sixteen supporters has been injured by the clash between "hooligans", British radicals supporters, and "radical" supporters of Real Madrid, before the friendly game that play at the Bernabeu stadium the national teams of Spain and England" How many English soccer fans can't travel outside their country to prevent that they doesn't kill anyone, or to prevent that they brutally beat people? MAYBE THOUSANDS!!!!!!! How many times has times UEFA and FIFA has threatened with expel England of a championship by the horrible behaviour of their supporters? SEVERAL TIMES, The last time was in EURO 2004, and i don't want to remember the horrible incidents of English supporters in EURO 2000. I assume that English people are 100% digusting killers, that enjoy kill people, or beat people brutally, destroy cars, shops, .... How many Spaniard soccer fans can't travel outside Spain so that they doesn't kill anyone,....? NONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How many times has times UEFA and FIFA has threatened with expel Spain of a championship by the horrible behaviour of their supporters? NONE!!!!!!! Spain NT supporters NEVER has provocated any incident with rival supporters outside Spain. NEVER!!!!!!! You can search until the end of the times.... I repeat again, There are several fascist/radical right wing or parties in Spain, and the sum of all his voted doesn't represent more than 0,1% of the votes, Other countries can't say the same!!!! In that countries the HATE OF SOME PEOPLE TO THE MINORIES IS SO BIG that they vote without any embarrassment to parties with very clear racism messages. That doesn't happen in Spain. Spain is a very tolerant/progressive country, with a very important policy to defend the rights of minorities, the last important law approved by Spain goverment was to legilize the marriage between people of the same sex, and to permit the adoption of child by gays and lesbian couples or marriages, the last month the goverment legalize the situation of 1.5 Millions of immigrants that were illegally in Spain, ... But we have some FASCIST of ENGLAND saying that a whole country is racist because some A S S H O L E S made monkey sounds in Spain NT game. IT IS OBSCENE AND TOTALLY DISTRACEFUL the way that from England are trying to generalize what happened to all Spain people, to all Madrid people, to all the people that was in the stadium, .... That pathetic behavior make me think that they only are using it to benefit LONDON 2012 olimpic candidature, anyway i'm not surprised of English goverment declarations, they are very habituated to lie, i still remember some lies that they said that a country had MASSIVE DESTRUCTION WEAPONS, maybe when they get they objetive, they will say "We know that Spaniard aren't racist, we know that only were a reduce group of people that doesn't represent the Spain people, but we had to generalize to benefic London Olimpic candidature, LONDON had corruption problems and we have to do something, you should get get used to our lies ...". Only for your information Black=negro and n!gger=negrata. Negro/black hasn't any racist meaning in Spain, negrata is clearly racist. Please, read again mi previous post. What i'm saying is that Aragones say "negro/Black" like he could have said "bald" if Henry was bald, or "long-haired" if he henry were long-haired, .... I repeat is a very rude, stupid way to speak with a person. And i am totally against that, but i don't think that he had racist intentions when he speaks with Reyes. IF he would have said "negrata" i wouldn't have any doubt about his racism, and i would have demanded his INSTANTLY. THERE ISN'T WORSE THING IN THE WORLD THAT THE DISCRIMINATION OF A HUMAN BEING BY HIS RACE, SEX, RELIGION, NACIONALITY, SEXUAL ORIENTATION, ... Aragones should have made very clear apologies and he shouldn't have re-started the polemic, he shouldn't have been so proud, he must has been humble even if he though the he was being unfairly treated by some english journalist. Because like i said in my previous post, with his attitude he only achieved that some a s s h o l e racist went to the stadium to made that horrible sounds. For your information, actually the Spain FA is in a election period, There isn't president. Anyway, Spanish FA are totally incompetent, i have critized them for many reasons in the past (For example, for not close Barcelona stadium after horrible incidents against Figo). The Football in Spain is healthy thanks to the clubs, not to the horrible work of Spain FA. I hope the we see new faces after the elections. I mean what bkn0528 told you: "Prawn, this is straightforward. There are posts in this thread and others that suggest that the racist chants occurred because the game was in the Bernabeu, and that it's therefore the Real Madrid fans who are to blame. He is simply saying that this was not a Real match, and the racist fans of the Spain team might have been fans of any one of a number of club teams in Spain which he listed or some other club he didn't list." He understood exacly what i was trying to say. Like i have said in my previous RM has fought very hard in the last years working together the police, and anti-racist and anti-violent commision to eradicate racist, and in the last years hasn't happened any incident in the stadium when Real Madrid play. I invite to all the people that have seen Real Madrid play in Bernabeu (TV or LIVE) in the last years, tells us experience and the behaviour of the great majority of RM fans. There are millions of witness around the world that watch RM all the weeks. If reading my first post you didn't undertand that i was totally agaisnt that "monkey sounds", you have serious problems.
By players, I mean the England players. The Spain players were too busy beating England. Wonder what would've happened if Hierro was still playing - he was known for a bit of chatter into the ear.
Are you trying to say that this comparatively small fight provoked the chants at the match? If so how do you explain the same chants appearing the day before in the U-21 match? Reality check mate - AFAIK the last time English fans were involved in "murder" was in the Heysel stadium disaster. And if you think that was solely down to the actions of the English fans then you are sorely mistaken. You should also check up on your facts, English fans are subject to many more beatings from home supporters than the other way around. Try looking up what happened to the Leeds supporters in Turkey a few years ago. Also try reading up about the attitudes taken by local police towards English supporters - if you are looking for provocation you'll find it there. I'm not saying we are perfect - far from it. What we are doing though is confronting the problems head on and doing something about it. Look at the improvements that have been made over the last 5 years or so when the English FA and government have accepted the behaviour was unacceptable. And typing something in capital letters does nothing other than confirm your attempts to sensationalise English incidents to divert attention from your countries own problems with racism. Whats your point? We are dealing with our problems - your FA is sticking it's head in the sand and ignoring it giving the view that racism is acceptable in Spanish football. Of course we are... Again - show me anything recent where English fans have killed anyone. Spain being expelled? None YET. Carry on with the behaviour we all saw and you'll see it pretty damn soon or does the fact that FIFA are investigating this not concern you? Thats all well and good but it does not prevent the fact a significant number of Spaniards felt it acceptable to participate in racist chants two games running. Why is that in such a tolerant/progressive society? Justify your reference to me as a fascist. That is unacceptable. I have yet to see a single post from an English person stating that every Spaniard joined in with the chants. Stop exaggerating. Your comments regarding the Olympics are a perfect example of why people feel there is now an issue with racism in Spain. Rather that accept the problem is more pervasive than just the Ultras you seek to discredit other peoples disgust and dismay at the actions of a significant number of Spanish in the stadium on both Tuesday and Wednesday night. Until you admit the problem then how can you begin to counter it. The English are far from perfect in relation to racism but at least we acknowledge it's existence and are actively seeking to eradicate it. The same cannot be said for you and many others. You prove my point perfectly. The fact that you feel it is not racist to distinguish someone by the colour of his skin is evidence of the issue in wider society. It does not matter whether the distinction is made in an insulting manner or not is irrelevant - any form of distinction is wrong. How can you not see this? "Unfairly treated by some English journalist"? Are you kidding? What exactly is unfair about requesting clarification from a National Coach about a clearly racist comment? Yet more evidence of this "victim mentality" that is more and more apparent - it's far easier to point your finger and blame someone else than accept that the problem lies within your sphere. How exactly does that stop the FA censuring of sacking Aragones for his unacceptable comments? Just because the comment is made by someone other than the President is irrelevant. The Spanish FA have done nothing other than support Aragones in his attitudes.