england supporters have come under a lot of scrutiny recently for their actions in the turkey game, and when you consider the booing during the national anthem and the pitch invasions, the criticism seems justified. however a lot has been made about the "racist" chant "id rather be a paki than a turk". is there some angle of this statement i am not getting because i dont think that statement should be racially offensive to anyone. is this a similar statement to "id rather be a canadian than a yank" or "id rather be welsh than english". if so i dont find anything rascist about those statements at all.
Yank isn't an offensive term, paki is. If they'd sung "I'd rather be a nigger than a turk" would that have been OK too?
Re: Re: Racism? in the Turkey game do they really carry the same association? so could they have said, "id rather be pakistani than turkish", and not come under similar pressure? i was just unaware that "paki" had such negative connotations.
Re: Re: Re: Racism? in the Turkey game I can't say for sure whether paki is "as bad" as the n-word, but it is quite awful. Our president found himself in hot water not long after Sept. 11th when he used the word "paki," apparently unaware of what it means to English speakers in other parts of the world. The story didn't receive much coverage in the states, however, because it's not a common racist epithet over here.
Re: Re: Re: Racism? in the Turkey game it does. it's a word that does tend to only get used in a racist context. Think about the meaning behind "I'd rather be pakistani than turkish". Essentially it's the opinion that being pakistani is a terrible thing, but I'd rather that than be turkish.
I've still to fully understand the problem regarding the booing of the Turkish National Anthem. Don't get me wrong, it'd be great if it didn't happen, but it does ,by everyone. It's what happens at football matches, not just English, everyones. In that instance, it's yet more fuss over nothing. Let's just see what the Turks do to our National Anthem in the return leg. It won't matter, and it shouldn't. With regards to the pitch invasions - so bloody what. I'll have a couple of small pitch invasions over the foreign love of lobbing anything that can harm onto the pitch. A few wankers in Burberry hats doesn't compare to the sheer scale of the volleys of coins and other sundry objects that will almost definitely face the England team in Turkey. And as for "I'd rather be a Paki than a Turk" As Richard says, 'Paki' is construed as offensive. But then if one thinks about it really hard, until it starts to hurt, is it more of a slight on the Turks than the 'Pakis'? It's more offensive here, it's always been used as a derogatory remark regarding the Pakistani immigrants in this country. Although, it doesn't really have to be Pakistanis, it can be anyone who ooks similar (Indians, Bangladeshis etc) nor is it just immigrants - 3rd generation etc still get the term.
Still cant understand the fuss about the fans invading the pitch to celebrate the goals. The police and media have already started the witch hunt to find the pitch invaders.. They're acting as if they killed someone or something... All fans who came on the pitch will be banned for life ..Just shows what a bunch of twats run football in this country. http://www.soccernet.com/euro2000/news/19991118irelandfight.html Just to put things in perspective about these pitch invasions...read the link above to read about what happened at the turkey vs. ireland game a couple of years back....
The only fuss about fans running onto the field should be safety and fans interfering with the flow of the game because most of it seemed to be pretty good-natured celebrating. Yes, a few fans did take it somewhat too far and taunted a few Turkish players and fans, but it did make me chuckle to see David Beckham being hugged by a guy in a David Beckham jersey... or Rio Ferdinand celebrating a goal with a throng of drunken skinheads. ...but I still think that all England fan apologists should still read this piece by Soccernet's John Brewin called "The scourge of England" where he argues that the incidents in Sunderland once again prove that the worst of England's fan elements always seem to come out when the national team plays. http://soccernet.espn.go.com/feature?id=263547&cc=5901 (Postscript [it's kinda lengthy, so scroll past if you don't want to read it]... The fuss about fans running onto the pitch to celebrate is going a little too far. For example, I've seen it happen (well... on television) a few times in the Nationwide... a few fans went over and celebrated with Trevor Benjamin after he scored a big goal at Rotherham late in the season and the whole stand of Leicester fans were surrounded by police and stewards, effectively blocking their view of the last 10 minutes of the match. After Wolves and Sheffield United won their playoffs, a handful of fans went on the field to celebrate, some of them were younger fans, and the police and stewards chased after them as if they had just robbed a bank. And of course, in the Premiership, there were some disgraceful scenes of fans on the pitch during both of the Brummie derbies, but most of the fans were just City fans just being a little too enthusiastic and besides running onto the field, didn't do much wrong. If I were a Birmingham City fan, I'd sure go crazy after each of the five goals they put past their local rivals after years and years of waiting I can definitely understand what they were feeling and to be honest, was happy for them. Now, I'm not saying that fans should be let onto the pitch. But if a fan goes out and dances around a little, then heads back to the stands, it shouldn't be treated like a murder case)
The trouble with articles like that is that it completely ignores the fact that most England fans are not like that. I know, I regularly watch England at home and abroad and whilst I have encountered many specimens of what can only be described as sub-human scum, I have met far, far more decent, friendly, passionate fans of the game. The thing is, nobody makes TV programmes or writes articles about the decent England fans. Nobody shows news reports of thousands of English peacefully mixing with the locals and enjoying themselves when England play abroad, probably because those aren't the kind of sensationalist stories that sell newspapers etc. There is a problem, and it needs to be addressed. But implying that England's support is made up purely of violent racists is not the way to go about it.
Brewin never said that all fans were like that (although he never said most fans weren't, either). He was writing about why it is that England national team games seem to be the events where this "sub-culture" (his word) always seems to steal the headlines.
Because - and this is one of the root causes of the problem - the tabloid press are absolutely desperate to see England fans cause trouble. It sells newspapers and creates headlines. And then the very same hacks who have been building up xenophobia, tension and hatred are the first to jump on their high horses and write page after page of sanctimonious drivel when there is trouble.