R16 June 30 France vs Argentina [R]

France was by far the better team. Congrats.

 

If is very difficult to win if your coach makes the wrong selections and applies the wrong tactics. Sampaoli did both. Let's be honest, he is a pretender. If you're always talking about Lionel Messi as a coach, you are lost. This is a team game. There's just so many stupid things done and said by Sampaoli. He should never coach a team again... anywhere.

 

Argentina has a lot of problems, though, going way beyond their players. This Argentina team, all in all, should never have qualified to the world cup. They got through an Ecuador team that was more than 10x dead; they had problems with sampaoli right from the start (which were the same problems with Bauza, G. Martino: Messi plus 10); they lost 6-1 to spain; they screwed up their arrangement with Israel, etc. etc. This was an ill team. When I speak about the makeup of the players, I refer to every team EXCEPT argentina--because they were not a team.

...but be patient. Let's see where my theory unfolds as the knockout stage progresses.

 

Argentina were 3rd in qualifying. There is no should. There is only do or do not.

 

Otamendi is a disgrace. His team is losing 4-3 and there is a tiny bit of time left and he assaults a fallen French player as he did with a Croatian player. What a pathetic sore loser.

Messi and Mascherano at least are far superior in talent and they don't do this kind of nonsense. Otamendi is a joke.

 

I still remember Otamendi being used like a rented mule by Miroslav Klose. Some things never change.

 

I was not talking about percentage but about the elite the top teams reaching the top

I didn't see you telling me i pollute the uruguay portugal thread with all the good messages i had for Uruguay....

 

There is already a thread for this topic, you don’t need to bring your agenda into every match thread.

Conmebol almost always features two elite sides at the WC, a fantastic ratio for a confederation of ten NTs.

Uruguay looks strong, but playing an overrated, second-rate anti-football UEFA side shouldn’t be a problem for them.

 

I consider Uruguay as a contender for the title since the beginning.
Not since yesterday.

There is nothing fantastic in having 2 elite side from countries with such football tradition and many registered members.....i am not impressed...

 

I thought there was a touch of Carlos Alberto 1970 about the 4th France goal. All the way out from the back and the finish similar. Game of the tournament so far, 3 really top-drawer goals and great drama.

 

Sampali is a fkin idiot!
Bringing in Fazio beginning of second half proved to be a bonehead move.
Any good coach would start their best players. Where was Dybala? Why not start Aguerro? Too many changes, bad substitutions and bad starting arrangements. There should have been more organized friendlies and a fixed starting lineup before WC began...

 

Sampaoli is a good coach, but the football he's identified with play didn't work with Argentina. His style is to play narrow and to press opponents relentlessly, especially high up the pitch. With Argentina, he had to give Messi a free role, thus limiting the high press.

Ultimately, Argentina lost the match once Fazio entered the pitch at the half. I don't know why Rojo was pulled out, probably an injury I'm guessing, but Fazio was too slow and too cold for this game. The goalie also should have done better on Mbappe's goal that slipped under him. Maybe he should not have been brought into place of Caballero, although Willy was poor in the previous round. For me this is what cost Argentina the game, but Argentina had issues beyond Fazio and the keeper. Messi was not in form. He was off and he was central to Argentina's success. The problem when building around one player is that if the player gets injured or falls out of form, the team as a whole struggles. To me it appeared as if Messi was sulking and lacked confidence. Physically, he was out of step.

France have a good side, but seem to have an identity problem. They play too deep for a team of their quality and invite huge pressure. Argentina could well have tied the game 4-4 given the late pressure they applied. As it so happens, Messi was off form and never took flight. I think with Kante and Matuidi in that midfield, France adopts a more negative approach than they otherwise would. It may just be a preference owed to Deschamps, who was a defensive midfielder himself.

Whatever the case, France need to break out of their shell defensively. They need to outscore opponents to win because I can't see them keeping clean sheets against quality opponents like Suarez, Cavani, no to mention Godin on corners. France could have conceded four or more against Argentina yesterday, let alone the three they did. Uruguay look like conceding one goal at most. Uruguay prefer to sit back and play dirty, unless they can help it. I expect the Uruguayans to really rough up Pogba, Griezmann, and Mbappe. I think they are in for a really rough game because the yellows reset after the quarter-finals.

 

He is NOT a good coach. How can you say that? You don't press opponents with an old team. Sampaoli showed over and over again that he is an idiot. He wants to be Bielsa, but instead he is a clown. Aguero is the greatest striker in English Premiership history, and he doesn't play him in the most important game. Making Messi the absolute focus of the team at 31 years. There shouldn't be any focus! Just play a balanced attack and Messi will get his goals. Mascherano is too old and slow. He should not be playing. Crazy substitutions. Playing Messi deep instead of closer to goal. So many idiotic decisions.

 

Thats true. And that's the problem.

Argentina 1986 is always devalued as a team with average players and a Maradona. But everyone knew his tasks. Everyone did their job. And Maradona was responsible for the brilliant moments. And that worked. Now you have a messi. But Argentina has other superstars. The Argentinians are all playing at European top clubs. The most important thing in football is scoring goals and preventing goals as a team. That made Argentina better in 1986. But that should not be a criticism of Messi.
Everyone has a personality, body language, charisma. You can not turn that shy Messi into an extroverted Maradona. But Maradona was the boss. But it was also easier for him, because he was the only star at that time. And he loved that attention.

 

Sampali proved he was lost when he was still experimenting in the most critical time in WC playoff. He screwed the team. I don't buy "Messi was not in form" blah blah. Did you miss his amazing goal and assists?! I also don't buy "Messi and Dybala cant play same time" bs. Makes no sense. Coach should make it work. Looks like he didnt even try! Dybala and Gonzalo Fat Donkey at Juve are awesome together. With Messi as well they should be incredible. If not then take out donkey and put in Aguero. Loselcio who plays regularly with most them French at PSG was not even given a chance, especially when they were lacking in midfield??? And he plays Enzo Perez instead, who wasn't even supposed to be on the squad. With that squad (Even with Caballero), they should have won the group, giving them fhe easiest path to final. When you bench some of the best players then there are serious coaching issues. Seemed like Sampali went out of his way to screw them instead.

 

I think Kante has been one of France's best players this World Cup. Everytime Messie dropped deeper it was Kante or Matuidi who completely neutralised him. It wasn't so much Messi was out of form for the game, those two French players just never let him get into the game.

Kante is great not at only cutting out passes (he attacked more so than I have seem him do for a long time against Argentina) but he is so solid at man marking. He doesn't give away fouls from rushing into the back of players, because he is at their feet when they receive the ball and makes them play it. Anyone wants to watch the best CDM in the game at the moment and how that role should be played than watch Kante!

Matuidi is out against Uruguay (two yellows). I'd also imagine France will expect Uruguay to sit deep, so might be a better game for Dembele, Fekir etc. to attack the wings (or could go for a more creative player as the French wing backs have been providing excellent width in attack).

 

How about something more current?

 

I agree that Kante is a great CDM, arguably the best in the game right now, but Messi had opportunities to break through the French defense and even when it looked like he was going to go through on goal, he would slip or lose a step in a manner that was out of his character. For me, this was not the Messi we are accustomed to. He looks beaten with Argentina, almost as if he's a shell of himself and I think this has to do with his frame of mind, not so much because his opponents have outwitted him or because they have outplayed him.

I think Kante and France as a whole did well to contain Messi, but Messi also fell short of his abilities and that made things easier for France than had he been in top form.

 

The one problem with that is how do you get Dybala to play in a manner that better suits Messi? How do you prevent Dybala from limiting Messi's influence? Both players are similar in their approach and style. Both are left footed. And between the two, Messi is the better player. So whatever Dybala has to offer, it would require that Dybala take on a different role and adopt a style of play that won't clash with Messi's. In other words, a different Dybala to the one we see with Juventus.

Maradona had a similar problem with Riquelme in 2010. Riquelme required that the team be built around him. Maradona built his team around Messi instead and Riquelme's relationship with Maradona soured.

The key to Argentina, it would seem, is getting the most from Messi. That means building the team around him and making sure he's playing at optimum levels. Sampaoli understood things from that perspective, but Messi was not on his best form and so it didn't pan out. Dybala is really there only in the event Messi is injured and thus Argentina must rely on an alternative player to put the team on his back without having to change the system/team too much.

 

This is a coach who led Chile to a 7-0 defeat of Mexico in the Copa America and then to glory in the Copa America over Argentina. He led Chile to victory over a strong Spain at the 2014 World Cup. He's a good coach, but ill suited to Argentina.

It's like Ranieri with Greece. He led Greece to a loss against Faroes Islands (arguably the lowest point of Greek football), but he then led Leicester, a team destined for relegation, to EPL glory. Ranieri was a good coach, but he did poorly with Greece.

I agree Sampaoli made mistakes in the way he set his team up, but Messi should be the central player for Argentina. The team should be built around him, even if that means benching Dybala. Ronaldo is even older than Messi and look how spectacular he has been for Portugal at the Euros and at this World Cup. And Maradona was about 30 years of age at the 1990 World Cup. Players like Dybala are comparable to Griezmann. Messi is in a class of his own, comparable to Maradona.

 

Nope. That was Pizzi (current Saudi Arabia coach). Sampaoli coached Chile in 2014 World Cup and 2015 Copa America. Pizzi took over after that and coached them through 2016 Copa America and 2017 Confederations Cup. Pizzi was in charge with the 7-0 defeat.

 

DeBruyne and Hazard both have similar roles and can play very well together. I won't believe Messi and Dybala cannot play same time. Great players like these will figure out what to do. The coach ought to help and try allow it to work. Benching the top valuable players is stupid..

 

I stand corrected.

 

You may be right for all I know, but having your best players together in the eleven doesn't always work and there is a risk they box each other in. With Messi right now, he has free reign up front. He could be on the left or the right or the center. Wherever he wants. With Dybala in there, Messi might be reduced to playing primarily on just the right side of the pitch, for example. That would mean his influence on the pitch is more limited. Or we see Messi retain his role, but then Dybala would be required to adapt. Messi plays a free role for Argentina, so that would likely require Dybala to pick up the slack and provide greater coverage defensively.

 

🚀🇫🇷OFFICIAL: @BenPavard28's stunning goal for @FrenchTeam v Argentina has been chosen as the @Hyundai_Global #WorldCup Goal of the Tournament!https://t.co/U0WEmz7dOM pic.twitter.com/BnsbNWoCKI

— FIFA World Cup (@FIFAWorldCup) July 25, 2018