R16 Analysis: BRA-CHI - Webb (ENG)

Discussion in 'World Cup 2010: Refereeing' started by MassachusettsRef, Jun 27, 2010.

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  1. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #1 MassachusettsRef, Jun 27, 2010
    All pre-match discussion of the appointment, play-by-play descriptions and post-match analysis of the officiating performance for this match belong in this thread.

    Analysis threads in this forum are strictly moderated. Supporters of participating teams are welcome and encouraged to participate. But all posters should take non-analytical posts to the group or rivalries forums. Thank you.

    Match #54. Brazil v Chile, second round
    Referee: Howard Webb (England)
    Assistants: Darren Cann (England) and Michael Mullarkey (England)
    Fourth official: Martin Hansson (Sweden)
     
  2. GlennAA11

    GlennAA11 Member+

    Jun 12, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    #2 GlennAA11, Jun 28, 2010
    Is it unusual that they selected a UEFA referee crew for an all-CONMEBOL match-up?
     
  3. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #3 MassachusettsRef, Jun 28, 2010
    You can't say it's unusual to have a UEFA referee. But you can say it's unusual to have an all-CONMEBOL matchup. Given the way the groups are drawn, it's quite rare. All recent officials on such matches have been from UEFA:

    The last one was also Brazil v. Chile, in 1998. Marc Batta of France did that game.

    Prior to that it was 1990, with Brazil v. Argentina. Joel Quiniou of France had that match.

    Argentina v. Uruguay in 1986. Luigi Agnolin of Italy had the whistle.

    The last time a non-UEFA referee did such a match was in the second group stage of 1982. Brazil v. Argentina, done by Vazquez of Mexico. And he sent Maradona off.
     
  4. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    #4 Ombak, Jun 28, 2010
    The Brazilian media have been focusing on the fact that Webb refereed Brazil x Egypt in the Confederations Cup and further focusing on the late PK he awarded since there's always been speculation that it was given with help from the replay on the big screen (that's what they insist on).

    They don't have much to say in all honesty so they're milking that for what it's worth.
     
  5. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #5 MassachusettsRef, Jun 28, 2010
    A quick off-topic post to the thread (though not to the forum)...

    The standard line at the time was that the SAR somehow made the call from the other end of the field. It's not as ludicrous as it sounds because I personally know a current WPS referee who once made the same call (DOGSO at the opposite goal) from his AR position in a USL match several years back. That being said, people were rampantly speculating at the time that the 4th official someone caught the Egyptian handling... either with video or without.

    It dawned on me the other night that the 4th official in question for this match was Matthew Breeze. Breeze then didn't get the Confed Cup Final (like many thought he would) and didn't get the CWC Final (like almost everyone thought he would). And then he didn't get picked for the World Cup, which shocked all observers.

    So the question... Did Matthew Breeze become a martyr? Saving Webb's career while scuttling his own?
     
  6. Gary V

    Gary V Member+

    Feb 4, 2003
    SE Mich.
    #6 Gary V, Jun 28, 2010
    1:40 corner kick - the kicker holds the flag, bending the pole back a couple feet. Lets it go just as he moves in for the kick. What?
     
  7. hurcoll

    hurcoll New Member

    Jun 15, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    #7 hurcoll, Jun 28, 2010
    Lucio should have received a YC for that diving trying to trick Webb for a PK...
     
  8. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #8 MassachusettsRef, Jun 28, 2010
    Well, if he didn't leap into the air theatrically, he likely would have got the stonewall penalty that he deserved.

    Second goal was a spectacularly good offside decision.
     
  9. LiquidYogi

    LiquidYogi Member

    Sep 3, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    #9 LiquidYogi, Jun 28, 2010
    They can hold the flag...they just can't remove it.
     
  10. billf

    billf Member+

    May 22, 2001
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #10 billf, Jun 28, 2010
    Webb is fantastic. This is a clinic so far.
     
  11. USSF REF

    USSF REF Guest

    #11 USSF REF, Jun 28, 2010
    Hit by the ball in the 46+... He still seems to be getting in the way, though I can't really blame him too much for this one.
     
  12. chaoslord08

    chaoslord08 Member

    Dec 24, 2006
    Fayetteville AR
    Club:
    West Bromwich Albion FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #12 chaoslord08, Jun 28, 2010
    My friend just sent me this text, thought I'd share it with everyone, y'all might get a kick out of it too:

    Great game so far. AR was spot on with that second goal (I was dreading seeing the replay, tbh). Webb not falling for Maicon's dive was good, I just wish he would have booked him to send home the message.

    Agree with MassRef about the PK non decision for Lucio. Looked like he was fouled, but then he went over the top with his fall, might have dove himself out of a PK there.
     
  13. refmedic

    refmedic Member

    Sep 22, 2008
    #13 refmedic, Jun 28, 2010
    I agree with one exception. So far, I have counted 4 "no more" warnings from Webb, yet there has been more (hence the 4th warning). So far, my only criticism would be that the players aren't getting the "no more" warning, and it might be time to raise the ante a little.
     
  14. PVancouver

    PVancouver Member

    Apr 1, 1999
    #14 PVancouver, Jun 28, 2010
    According to the USSF ATR:

    "Players may return bent or leaning corner flags to the upright position, but they may not bend or lean them away from the upright position to take a corner kick, nor may the corner flag be removed for any reason."

    But this isn't the first World Cup player to do this and get away with it. It probably isn't something most referees will bother with.
     
  15. USSF REF

    USSF REF Guest

    #15 USSF REF, Jun 28, 2010
    I am positive the USSF ATR does not hold any standing at this event.
     
  16. LiquidYogi

    LiquidYogi Member

    Sep 3, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    #16 LiquidYogi, Jun 28, 2010
    Yeah this is the 3rd time someone has quoted something from the USSF at me, kinda tired of it. Also this is the Advice to Referees, advice is great when it makes sense...it doesn't make sense to me to penalize a player for holding a bendable flag out of his way. If it was a flag that can't bend and he's ripping up the dirt, I'd do something about it.
     
  17. USSF REF

    USSF REF Guest

    #17 USSF REF, Jun 28, 2010
    It depends on if it REALLY means "no more" or something more along the lines of, "I don't like that type of tackle, cut it out."

    Also, could it be that each time he gave this warning it was to a different player, each guy being told, "no more of that from you?"

    lol. I don't know... but there could be a few questions to be asked about this.
     
  18. LiquidYogi

    LiquidYogi Member

    Sep 3, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    #18 LiquidYogi, Jun 28, 2010
    I think Webb is making a good case for him to get the Final.
     
  19. Gary V

    Gary V Member+

    Feb 4, 2003
    SE Mich.
    #19 Gary V, Jun 28, 2010
    I should have added to my comment about the flag, "Or is this just a USSF thing?" I guess it is.

    And it's rather trifling when you have good flags in good ground. Not so at youth fields where there is one well worn hole in the hard ground and/or the flag has a permanent 20* bend in the spring. Then I tell the kids, "Sorry, they're crappy flags. Play them as is."
     
  20. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #20 MassachusettsRef, Jun 28, 2010
    If there is any justice, Darren Cann and Mike Mullarkey might play Howard Webb into the WC Final. They are spectacular.

    Of course, politics trumps justice at the World Cup, so I don't expect it. And I still hold Frank De Bleeckere to be my personal favorite.

    But if FIFA reasons that goal/no-goal decisions are the most important thing in a match (and they might), the ARs have a good chance of carrying Webb, who has been pretty strong in his own right. Plus, there's a good recent history of English ARs working the WC Final regardless (1998 and 2002).
     
  21. MrRC

    MrRC Member

    Jun 17, 2009
    #21 MrRC, Jun 28, 2010
    Webb is having a nice match. Of course, it has not been particularly difficult and the three goal lead by Brazil is making the 2nd half much easier than if it were only 1-0.

    His ARs nailed two offside decisions, which separates his crew from the Italians.

    I'm convinced that he will get one of the last four matches. Which one is the only question.
     
  22. LiquidYogi

    LiquidYogi Member

    Sep 3, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    #22 LiquidYogi, Jun 28, 2010
    Wasn't the most difficult match on the surface but it's Chile vs Brazil...they really don't like eachother. Keeping their minds in the game has something to do with Webb, and I'm very happy after yesterday that we have this to look at.
     
  23. PVancouver

    PVancouver Member

    Apr 1, 1999
    #23 PVancouver, Jun 28, 2010
    If you are going to directly contradict the USSF ATR, you ought to at least acknowledge that you are doing so (unless you are based outside the USA). Comments can be extremely misleading otherwise.

    I am positive that this isn't the first time this has pointed out.
     
  24. LiquidYogi

    LiquidYogi Member

    Sep 3, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    #24 LiquidYogi, Jun 28, 2010
    I will if I'm discussion an MLS game. This is a World Cup game, so I'm not going to quote indoor or Beach Laws either.
     
  25. PVancouver

    PVancouver Member

    Apr 1, 1999
    #25 PVancouver, Jun 28, 2010
    So you base this opinion on the fact that you rarely see it called? Or what, exactly?
     
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