R16 Analysis: ARG-MEX - Rosetti (ITA)

Discussion in 'World Cup 2010: Refereeing' started by MassachusettsRef, Jun 27, 2010.

  1. KMJvet

    KMJvet Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 26, 2001
    Quake Country
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's the hyperbole and repetitiveness of emotion, but I wish soccer writers and bloggers and even the referee community could embrace some of that emotion. The problem with those folks and even very long-time fans is we've lived through bad calls and their impacts on games and we're sort of too numbed to it.

    But I think this feels like deja vu to the use of technology in the NFL to get calls right. There were all the same outcries about slowing down the game, and how can you make it work so it won't be abused, and why would we need to change since the game's been fine without it all these years, we can't apply it to all college and high school games, etc.
    And despite this, they made the change and a few years later, nothing bad had happened. Instead the officials seem to like to check their work. People enjoy debating whether a call will get overturned for the short time reviews take. College and high school games are the same as they always have been. Games aren't lasting any longer and mostly fans are just pleased as punch that the players, not the calls, decide games. The post game debates about calls aren't entirely gone, but that's a shadow of it's former self.

    I think the same would happen with soccer, but somebody's got to have a little outrage and yell a bit about international disgrace, hyperbole or not, or we're just going to have the status quo, which isn't that good for the speed of play and players in the modern game and we could have things be a lot better.
     
  2. Andy Zilis

    Andy Zilis Member+

    Mar 9, 2005
    Rochelle, IL
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not that it particularly matters, but is it ESPN drawing these shadow lines to show offside calls or is it a world feed? Just asking because they drew the line at the wrong Mexican player in this picture.
     
  3. LiquidYogi

    LiquidYogi Member

    Sep 3, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    I've met more than a few NFL officials. They're boring, by the book people who I don't want to turn into. If Soccer makes this change, it's no longer going to be interesting or even a challenge really. I won't bother, and I'm certain more than a few officials will hang up the whistle. I referee because I can do anything I want in this world and become an expert at it. As a referee I can be an expert, and still get things wrong and still be uncertain about things.

    There's no way as a referee to rest on your laurels, until they introduce replay. Then I will not be taking a stand I will simply be copping out so the cameras can bail me out. In the NFL officials are afraid to make decisions in case they get overruled by the cameras, making them bad at their jobs when it comes to situations that can't be overturned by the cameras. When you add a crutch it's used until it breaks. It may be interesting to the power hungry among us who just like being the top dog of referees...it's not interesting to people like me who love the sport.

    Add 2 more referees...remove the human element, slow the game down and you ruin it.
     
  4. Lusankya

    Lusankya Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 14, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I guess even after the South Africa - Mexico match people still don't get the offside rule. ;)
     
  5. Falc

    Falc Member+

    Jul 29, 2006
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    I'm with Yogi. Replay only makes NFL referees more indecisive. And waiting for a decision from the replay booth makes a slow game even slower.

    A mistake was made. It was an understandable one. I think it was a case where the AR was focussed on the ball bouncing off the keeper and lost track of Tevez. And I am certain that most people in the stadium and the world wide audience did the same thing. Just listening to the ESPN crew say oh, oh, he was offside during the replay indicates such. It was an honest mistake.
     
  6. vetshak

    vetshak Member+

    May 26, 2009
    Minnesota
    As we have discussed on the GER-ENG thread, calling those referees incompetent shows a very poor understanding of the art and techniques of refereeing. This kind of comment is unfair and irresponsible.

    I won't argue with an argument calling this Italian crew incompetent... harsh perhaps, but considering the outcome and impact on the match, disgruntlement is perfectly understandable. But stick to the match on this thread. If you don't understand what happened in the other game, then you're just trolling and flaming. The mods have been pretty clear that there are plenty of other options to complain without reason.
     
  7. CanadaFTW

    CanadaFTW Member

    Jun 21, 2007
    The anti-review comments are to me, quite funny. So Yogi, you would stop refereeing because the highest level matches use replay? Give me a break, as even if review is implemented it would not affect 99% of matches.

    As for the review, there are various ways to implement it.

    The three ways I see are:

    NHL method of reviewing every goal vs a set of criteria (so in/not in, put in with a hand, offside right before the goal, etc.). Perhaps allowing review of anything within 10 seconds of the goal would work.

    NFL method of coaches challenges (perhaps 1 a match that you keep if you are correct)

    New "football" method of just having the 4th official watching the TV feeds and being allowed to make decisions and quickly review things, but with no power to unduly delay the match.

    As a further point, with England having gotten screwed in this manor, I think it becomes quite likely that the EPL really pushes to implement something, so we might see some interesting FIFA politics in the coming year.
     
  8. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    I'm sorry guys. I've read a ton of these responses and posts. The two non calls over the weekend are indefensible at this level. At our level, yes, mistakes happen, but the scope of these mistakes is mind boggling. So, the pace of the game has surpassed the ability of the ref team to keep up with the dynamic play. So, we need to either go replay or add bodies. The three man crew is a dinosaur as currently deployed. Referee 22 yards from goal, and AR 40 yards from goal cannot tell whether the ball was over by 2 yards???? And an AR given a second chance on Tevez' goal, will not retract a bad decision that the CR KNEW was OS? The system is broken because the players are faster, the ball goes faster, and the style of play is quicker. And still we cling to a three man crew that has been in place forever when the game was slower and the build up slower and the defenses slower...etc.
     
  9. vetshak

    vetshak Member+

    May 26, 2009
    Minnesota
    Hyperbole. The AR was 14 yards off the line when the ball hit the ground. The ball was one diameter (about 9 inches) over the line. Look at the pictures I posted on that thread. Please make responsible statements.

    Are you saying that in 1966, players were incapable of shooting at the pace and accuracy that Lampard's shot was hit?


    I do not argue that the mistake in the Mexico-Argentina match was acceptable, not by a long shot. But you do not have any idea that Rosetti knew that Tevez was offside.

    With any luck, Rosetti might one day publish a tell-all account similar to Graham Poll. I wish the referees could and would comment on situations like these, because we can all learn from their mistakes and how they made them. But until we know exactly what was said between them, it is wrong to assume anything about what the crew knew.

    We know what they should have seen, and that they failed to judge the situation appropriately. Criticism of that aspect of the situation is fair.
     
  10. bluedevils

    bluedevils Member

    Nov 17, 2002
    USA
    I agree. The officials MUST get these kinds of decisions right. They are game-changing decisions and in the case of these 2 incidents, the correct decisions were very obvious.

    If the best officials in the world cannot get them right -- and this World Cup is showing to all the world that they can't -- then something needs to be done. Whether this is better training of officials, better recruitment of officials, replay, goal line officials, extra ARs, electronic chip in the ball, 12 referees on the field at once, etc -- SOMETHING must be done.

    I like the human element of refereeing as well as the traditional 3-man system, and have a strong distaste for adding technology to the mix. But the status quo just isn't good enough right now.
     
  11. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think he is making a responsible statement. He's using the Pythagorean theorem to get the AR's physical distance from the goal--not the goal line.
     
  12. vetshak

    vetshak Member+

    May 26, 2009
    Minnesota
    My apologies, I misunderstood what rufus was getting at.

    Nonetheless, the AR being "40 yards from goal" is a result of the limitations of the DSC, not due to physical inability to keep up with play.
     
  13. PVancouver

    PVancouver Member

    Apr 1, 1999
    The goal line camera seemed pretty effective.
     
  14. LiquidYogi

    LiquidYogi Member

    Sep 3, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    I've been advocating 2 more referees the entire time. I want people making the decisions quickly through the use of headsets or arm signals. I don't want computers or a man up in a booth who isn't an official on the field with first hand experience with that game to be making any sort of decisions.
     
  15. Falc

    Falc Member+

    Jul 29, 2006
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Having a goal line AR would have been helpful in both matches yesterday as an extra set of eyes. One to see the ball cross the line, the other to have a good look how far advance Tevez was. It does not mean that a 5-man system will have to be used down the ladder. But at this level and for high profile leagues, easy to do.
     
  16. CanadaFTW

    CanadaFTW Member

    Jun 21, 2007
    If we assume that Rosetti thought it was offside (but isn't certain), with an AR who believes it was onside, would the goal line referee really help? He is unlikely to be certain either, but could that have been enough to change the call? It almost seems to muddy the waters as much as helping, but who knows.
     
  17. LiquidYogi

    LiquidYogi Member

    Sep 3, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Yeah but it means it COULD be used down the ladder. It could be used anywhere...2 more officials, that's not hard to do at all.
     
  18. LiquidYogi

    LiquidYogi Member

    Sep 3, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    I think so...a goal line AR can tell easily in that situation that Tevez was ahead of both defenders. Rosetti faced with his doubts and 1 certain referee on the goal line will have a lot more confidence in calling it back.
     
  19. WorldCupRene

    WorldCupRene New Member

    Jul 10, 2006
    Well... he did try to make it up to Mexico... he had already shown a yellow to
    Marquez and advised Torrado he was hitting too much at the beginning of the match. How many times did you see both of them hitting after the score? Several times... and yet he never tried to keep them from doing that... because he knew he had to compensate for his error. Obviously, the one who paid the price was Messi.

    This is the typical action of a referee who knows he screwed up big time. As a matter of fact... I don't believe he will have any action going forward in this World Cup.

    But hey... it may mean that Mexico will be represented in the finals... by a man name Armando Archundia.
     
  20. WorldCupRene

    WorldCupRene New Member

    Jul 10, 2006
    Well... since the referees already have an intercom system... wouldn't it be easy for a booth referee to have access to the live feed (maybe from two or three angles) and use DVR to do a mini review and let them know through the intercom if the call was correct? Would that really bog down the game more than feigning an injury? And couldn't this technology be limited to scoring situations only?
     
  21. vetshak

    vetshak Member+

    May 26, 2009
    Minnesota
    This statement makes no sense. How could he be "making it up to Mexico" by going soft on their challenges on Messi before the offside goal?:confused:
     
  22. WorldCupRene

    WorldCupRene New Member

    Jul 10, 2006
    What I mean is... before the goal, he was applying one criteria against Mexican fouls... after the goal, he was way more linient on them. By allowing them to hit more without showing them a yellow (or a second yellow), he thought they might be able to get back in the game. It happens all the time... but usually with less experience referees.
     
  23. KMJvet

    KMJvet Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 26, 2001
    Quake Country
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They have it wrong, but not for the reason you said. Yes, it's at the head of the 2nd to last player. But what they drew, I suspect anyway, was at the foot of the last player rather than his knee.
     
  24. MrRC

    MrRC Member

    Jun 17, 2009
    June 28, 2010
    FIFA: Replay of Tevez goal 'a mistake'


    JOHANNESBURG -- FIFA will censor World Cup match action being shown on giant screens inside the stadium after replays of Argentina's disputed first goal against Mexico fueled arguments on the pitch.
    Angry Mexico players protested to referee Roberto Rosetti after the screens in Johannesburg's Soccer City showed Argentina forward Carlos Tevez was offside before he scored the opening goal in a 3-1 victory on Sunday.




    FIFA spokesman Nicolas Maingot said Monday that replaying the incident was "a clear mistake."
    "This will be corrected and we will have a closer look into that," Maingot told a news conference Monday. "We will work on this and be a bit more, I would say, tight on this for the games to be played."
    Maingot said the screens were used to broadcast a FIFA "infotainment program" to fans before the match and could be used to replay some match action.
    Responsibility for operating the screens falls to South Africa's World Cup organizing committee, which took charge of the 10 stadiums during the tournament.
    Organizers' spokesman Jermaine Craig said he had spoken to the stadium broadcasting team about the incident.




    "The goal was awarded and it happened relatively quickly," Craig said. "In retrospect, maybe it shouldn't have been shown. It was shown and unfortunately there is nothing we can do about that."
    Maingot said FIFA has not yet received feedback from its officials at the match about a mass confrontation between coaches and players behind the Mexico bench as the teams left the field at halftime.
    Italian referee Rosetti was at the center of a melee trying to separate heated conversations that included Argentina coach Diego Maradona.

    Copyright 2010 by The Associated Press
     
  25. Mariella

    Mariella Member

    Mar 4, 2005
    Southern California
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    This
     

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