Questions about Japan NT

ACL is meaningless. If you are using that as your guideline, then all you are getting is disinformation.

The ACL involves long, expensive, 18-hour airplane flights (each way) at midweek, and the only way to really compete in that competition is to forget about winning your domestic league (take a look at the current domestic standings of the four ACL teams from Korea and you can see what Im talking about).

Even if officiating wasnt wildly erratic, turning the competition into little more than a roulette game, teams from the J.League have minimal incentive to make a full effort, because the ACL champion gets less prize money than the team that finishes fifth in the J.League. Indeed, prize money is so modest that ONLY the top two teams last year made a profit. Everyone else lost money by taking part.

If you had the choice between MAYBE winning the ACL, or finishing in the top five in Japan (which isnt as succeptible to chance), all the incentives except one -- publicity and pride -- argue in favour of concentrating on domestic football. That factor is still viewed as important enough for people to take part, but if you ask any coach which games he considers more important, he wont hesitate to tell you.

In fact, coach Takahata of Kawasaki Frontale got in trouble earlier this year because he was asked some question like that at a press conference organized by the ACL, and answered "The J.League, of course." . . . at which point everyone in the room murmured with embarassment, the AFC official who was in the room jumped in and said "I think that was a mis-translation", and Takahata . . . realising what had happened, continued his answer . . . "actually we treat both with equal importance."

 

It could have been better but it also could have been worse. The fact that Cameroon is in terrible form gives me a little comfort.

Getting out of the group is our realistic goal but I am just expecting 3pts.

We could have done better in 02 and we should have done better in 06 but I don't think we missed anything. We've taken a step back but it happens to every country. We're just not good enough this cycle and Okada isn't the greatest coach so we are seeing what we should expect.

Kagawa is the one to keep an eye on. He didn't get into the squad but he just signed with Dortmund. He's an attacking mid and just only 21. Uchida is also very good. He's 22 and just signed for Shalke. Plays right back and is a liablity in the back but magnificant going forward. He's not fit right now but if does play in the World Cup, he'll be important for us.

 

How does that compare when you take into account the money earned from playing in the CWC and winning a game or two?

And I thought the AFC subsidizes (if not pay 100% of) travelling costs now?

 

What money?

The point I made was that you get much less money for performance, on a per-game basis. You get ZERO for winning a game, and only a tiny amount for participating. Prize money only starts to get meaningful from the semifinal stage on...

However if you want to take it further, you also get much Much MUCH less from ticket sales and broadcasting, while your expenses are a lot higher.

- ACL is only broadcast on Asahi BS and from what Ive heard, that money goes to the AFC, not the clubs. Compare that to J.League matches, where clubs get a portion of the broadcast revenue
-Attendances for ACL matches this year ranged from slightly over half (for Sanfrecce) to less than 1/5th (for Kashima) the average attendance at League matches.

As for expenses, travel costs are NOT fully reimbursed. The AFC gives an allowance, but I was told directly by a person who works for Frontale that the actual cost they had to pay was more than twice the amount given for allowance. If you fly budget airlines, coach class, and stay in a one-star hotel, you might break even. Otherwise the money comes out of the club's pocket. With fuel prices rising and international travel becoming more expensive, I would not be the least surprised to see the ACL collapse within a few more years. If they can find better sponsorship and improve the financial rewards, as well as get stronger broadcasting promotion, perhaps the tournament MIGHT improve, but until they can get fans in Japan to care about it, the ACL isnt going anywhere....

 

Are you sure?

I was just curious, because Pohang last year got just over 2 million US after winning the championship - according to you that's not higher than what a 5th placed J-league team would get. But then Pohang also participated in the CWC, where:

they won a match to proceed to the SF, then finished in the 3rd place to get another 2.5 million, ending up with around 4.5 million USD total for participating in the ACL, winning it and playing in the CWC. So how does it compare now?

 

Well, if what you posted is accurate then theyve added money for each game won, since I last checked. But those numbers are still tiny. Do you know how much it costs to fly 30-40 people from Tokyo to Beijing (much less Tokyo to Adelaide)? Add in the cost of practice ground rental, catering and hotel - lets face it, even if you win and get $40,000+$30,000 travel reimbursement, you still arent breaking even.

What I do know is that a report in the Sydney Morning Herald earlier this year stated that the only clubs who made a net profit from participation last year were Pohang and Ittihad. Everyone else lost money.

It gets worse when you compare to J.League revenues. The gate receipts alone for a J.League game (lets assume 15,000 fans) is between 30 and 40 million yen. Thats $400,000-$500,000 and we havent even started considering broadcasting revenues.

There isnt even any comparison.

 

That was ONE occasion.
Better to look at the example of Seongnam (I think it was Seongnam), who won the ACL the same year that they finished dead LAST in the KLeague. In Korea, if you finish dead last you dont get relegated. The J.League is a lot more severe on teams that have a slump, and if you are not careful, you may end up like Tokyo Verdy (who can trace the starting point of their financial woes almost directly to their participation in the 2006 ACL).

All you need to do is look at that one example, (and then a few examples of the ACL officiating like this [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QgrTZGUy1E"]YouTube- AFC Officiating: Part three[/ame] or this [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmMab9TN5dI"]YouTube- AFC Officiating: Part 2[/ame] or this [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj_C8ASb77c"]YouTube- AFC Officiating: Part one[/ame] ) and you quickly understand why J.League teams are a bit less than 100% interested in the ACL.

 

I think another major factor is -- as Matsu has noted the lack of -- attendance.
Until JLeague fans show up, it's unlikely to see JLeague clubs take much interest.
I think given the various factors -- and this clear message from the fanbase themselves that it's not a vital trophy -- it's unlikely to become a very important competition for Japanese clubs.

That said, unlike Matsu, I do enjoy and appreciate ACL. And I think it's improving -- slowly but surely, and especially with the new professionalization, format, and measures to make it more viable financially.
But it's unlikely in the foreseeable future that it will ever be more important than JLeague itself, or even approaching the importance of JLeague -- especially considering Korea and Australia have no worries about being relegated. Those sides can devote themselves entirely to ACL and piss as many league matches away as they like -- whereas the table in JLeague is often very compressed in the middle and it takes but a few mistakes to find yourself in relegation battle.

 

I never said I dont enjoy it.
OK, there ARE some occasions like the match shown in the YouTube clips, where the ACL can be completely unwatchable. But I do enjoy many of the games.

I also enjoy the Nabisco Cup, the Xerox Cup, the JOMO all-star match, and the friendlies against European clubs during the summer. I even enjoyed the "Hide Nakata's washed up old men team vs. Ventforet Kofu benchwarmers and U-18 players" match. But you can "enjoy" something, and still recognise that it is WAY down the list of priorities for the team in terms of how much effort they put in.......

 

Perhaps I should rephrase that I enjoy it on the same level as "blockbuster" JLeague matches such as Urawa - Kashima.
But I recognize most people don't, and I can understand why that's the case for fans and clubs alike.

 

I see - your initial post had only placed emphasis on the relatively small prize money and not the tickets revenue and that's what I was rather confused about; it seems like you were basing your assessment on the ACL of 2008 and earlier and not 2009, and I was wondering why you would say the ACL prize money is less than that of 5th placed J-league team when the J-league champions get somewhere between 1.5-2 million USD - which is less than half of what Pohang earned as prize money last year.

Anyway, considering how the AFC signed a sponsorship deal with WSG that's worth 1 billion USD spread over 8 years starting from 2013 where most of the money will be allocated to the ACL, I guess that the prize money will at least triple and even quadruple in the upcoming years and J-league clubs should get more interested, then.

 

Honestly do not give a crap how japanese clubs do in ACL and do think its a pointless exercise. The only benefit I've seen recently is that Yuya Osako has been starting some of those games. Also the manner in which AFC operates its competitions pretty much disgusts me and the improvements that are seen in the ACL are only due to the work of Saburo Kawabuchi's alterations to the competition.

On top of that, Japanese clubs doing well at ACL level doesn't add any more prestige to the J.League as majority of Asia recognises J.League as the best league of Asia even after this season which there were no J-teams in the last 8.

 

Say what?
You seem to have left out a "0"
Kashima's prize money for first place was Y2 billion (US$20 million+), not Y200 million

Even the Nabisco Cup first prize is US$5.5 million
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=697141&cc=4716

The Xerox Cup - a single exhibition match at the start of the year - earned the Kashima a bit over $1 million or about 50% of the money as Pohang got for the entire ACL.

The fifth place J1 team earns roughly US$2 million.
The first place ACL team earns considerably less (until you start counting the World Club Champ.s, which is an entirely different competition)

 

While the ACL is generally not that big a deal or important all round, the ticket to the the CWC is a pretty decent perk (much like the Asian Cup ---> Confederations Cup). The chance of playing the European Champion (South American Champion not so much) in a meaningful match in a FIFA club tournament much like how Urawa and Gamba did against AC Milan and Manchester Utd certainly adds global exposure for the club and abit of presitge not to mention the financial gains for just playing a few games. Its abit ironic and a shame that the two times a J.League club won the ACL a J.League club would have entered the CWC anyway.

Perhaps but one could argue that abit prestige was lost from the "embarrassment" this year. Basically outsiders looking into Asian football generally use this tournament as a measuring gauge regardless of whether this is a proper measuring gauge or not.

What is this WSG that you speak of?

 

WRONG!
That is true in Europe, where the longest flight if 4-5 hours and the longest time difference about 3 hours. In Asia, though, continental competitions have to deal with debilitating problems of distance. I dont know how many times youve travelled abroad, but I used to travel from Japan to Singapore or Hong Kong about once a month, for my job (MUCH MUCH shorter trips and less jet lag than Japan-Qatar or Australia-Iran, for example). After the first trip it isnt so hard to recover, but after youve made three trips in three months, you walk around like a zombie for the next week. Ive never met anyone who doesnt experience the same problem. Why do you think European clubs hate to release Asian players for friendlies?

Taking part in the ACL is a physically debilitating exercise. If you pass the quarterfinals, and start making the long-haul home-and-away matches from East Asia to West Asia, your club will be incapable of playing for two weeks after they get back. Even last year, Pohang was in first place in the K.League before they had to play the semifinal, but they ended up falling well short of a title. The same happened to Urawa Reds in 2007.

If youve never travelled in Asia, on a 19-hour flight over 7 time zones and then back, all in the space of 3-4 days then Im sorry-you dont know what youre talking about. Continental competitions in Asia are detrimental to football. Period.

 

holy crap I had no idea the champions get $20 million I thought it was less than 10 million.

That makes the ACL even more a useless exercise.

hang on, the 5.5 million for the Nabisco was won by Kawasaki for being runners up. Meaning FC Tokyo would've got much more probably.

 

On the J League website, it says first place gets 200 million yen(2 million USD+). I find it very hard to believe that the winner gets 20 million USD. But if the Nabisco Cup winner get 5.5 million USD, you might be right and the website might be wrong.

 

Yeah, that's where I got the information from - and 20 million USD seems a lot, when EPL winner gets around 20 million pounds (not counting TV rights); still all the power to J-league if there's that much money around.

http://www.sportspromedia.com/deals/_a/afc_and_wsg_sign_billion-dollar_deal_for_asian_soccer/


EDIT: Oops, thank you for the clarification, shuvy.