Question or two

Discussion in 'Referee' started by coppa, Jan 29, 2008.

  1. coppa

    coppa New Member

    Aug 21, 2005
    Downingtown, PA
    None of these situations I have witnessed, just hypothetical from a players standpoint.

    1. The ball is about to roll into the net and a parent sprints on the field and kicks it away. PK?
    2. There's a breakaway and the goalie intentionally takes down the striker but the strikers teammate quickly tucks the ball into the net. How would this be ruled? Obviously there would be advantage and the goal allowed but could you also send off the keeper?
  2. refmike

    refmike New Member

    Dec 10, 2003
    Cal North
    1) once the ball is touched by an outsider play must stop and, after clearing the outsider away, restarted with a dropped ball from where the ball was touched (but not inside the goal area). It does not matter if the ball goes in the net or not. Also no PK because that is only given if a defender committs a direct free kick foul inside his penalty area. We don't award any free kicks when a non-player interferrs with the game.

    2) Yes the keeper could be sent off. If the attacker would have made a goal if not taken down, the keeper has Denied an Obvious Goal Scoring Opportunity (DOGSO) and that requires a send-off. If a teammate gathers the ball and advances it, advantage could be given for the foul committed by the keeper but the DOGSO misconduct must still be punished.
  3. thearbiter

    thearbiter Member

    May 24, 2007
    You'll find answers here: Final Aug2007.pdf

    Answer #1 at 10.7
    Answer #2 at 12.39

    This memorandum may also help you:
  4. Spaceball

    Spaceball Member

    Jun 15, 2004
    This is now incorrect. If you apply advantage and the goal is scored, you can no longer apply DGF. USSF changed their stance in '06 after the Champions League incident with Jens Lehmann to align with the rest of the world. They now view advantage as a team concept rather than an individual one, meaning if anyone scores the opportunity was not denied. In the past you were correct that they viewed it as DOGSO against a player rather than a team so you could have a goal and a send off. The memo provided by thearbiter is the official word on this.
  5. campton

    campton New Member

    May 1, 2007

    EXACTLY! being a gunners fan nothing pissed me off more than what happened at that UEFA final.

    Regarding the parents its an outside agent, drop ball. Call the police (maybe?)
  6. Wreave

    Wreave Member

    May 4, 2005
    Colorado Springs, CO
    I'll take these a little further.

    1. First, remove the parent in question from the field and from the sideline. Game suspended till he/she is in the parking lot. Second, clear the area behind the goals. If the parents are close enough to come onto the field and make that play, they're too close anyway. Third, the restart is a dropped ball. From your description, it sounds like the ball was inside the goal area, very near the goal line. This would make the dropped ball on the 6, at the point closest to where it was when the parent touched it. If it was obvious to all that there would have been a goal but for the interference of the parent, you could advise the defending team that the sporting play would be to allow the attacking team an uncontested dropped ball and a goal, but you cannot enforce it. In either case, note the facts of play and report them.

    2. As has already been said, allow the goal, caution the keeper.
  7. campton

    campton New Member

    May 1, 2007

    Good luck getting them to give up a goal
  8. Wreave

    Wreave Member

    May 4, 2005
    Colorado Springs, CO
    Didn't say it would be easy, or that they would comply - just that if were obvious to all that it would have been a goal, the sporting response from the defending team would be to allow the goal. If they choose not to do so... document the event and leave it to the competition authorities.
  9. campton

    campton New Member

    May 1, 2007
    I thought a scenerio that we discussed a while back. You could just keep redropping the ball and cautioning the offending player for Dissobeying referees instructions.
  10. njref

    njref Member

    Mar 29, 2003
    New Jersey

    You are going to tell a player to allow a goal? That seems a bit beyond our authority. You can mention what the sporting play is, but you can't force it.

    You can't caution for unsporting behavior just because a player/team does not act in what you consider to be the proper sporting manner. USB is only for when a player violates the minimum level of sporting conduct, as opposed to the optimium level of conduct.
  11. campton

    campton New Member

    May 1, 2007
    I do believe that there is a clause in USB saying that a referee can caution for failing to disobey the instructions of a referee.
  12. falcon.7

    falcon.7 New Member

    Feb 19, 2007
    2007 7+7 from US Soccer website:

    Nothing in UB that could be what you're getting at, but if you wanted to be cheeky you could file it under "dissent":

    "a. Verbally or through action disputes or shows contempt for an official’s decision"

    I don't think you can redrop a dropped ball just because the outcome wasn't "fair". If you drop the ball and it's taken legally, I don't think there's anything you can do about it.
  13. Sagy

    Sagy New Member

    Aug 6, 2004
    Does anyone think that a CR suggestion/recommendation that team A should allow a goal can be classified as "official’s decision"?

    Does anyone think that legally preventing a goal from from being scored can be classified as "disputes or shows contempt"?

    If we accept that both of the above are reasonable, then clearly we must accept that the CR can just "decide" that the ball crossed the line in the first place. At least this will avoid the sham of a dropped ball with ordering a team to give up a goal. Since we all a agree that the CR can't award a goal unless a goal was actually scored, we must conclude that a CR can't order a team to give up a goal (a CR can suggest/recommend/encourage a team to do so).
  14. Wreave

    Wreave Member

    May 4, 2005
    Colorado Springs, CO
    Agreed Sagy.

    I don't think the referee has any power beyond telling the defense what the sporting response would be. The referee's job is to enforce the laws, not spin them to create an outcome he thinks is fair.

    If the defense refuses to allow an undisputed dropped ball, then the referee should just note the facts of play in his match report and continue to officiate the game.
  15. vabeacher

    vabeacher Member

    Jul 27, 2001
    Virginia Beach, VA
    Great idea. If the ball was right on the line, when the parent cleared it, I would walk over to my AR and ask him/her: "Did you see the ball cross the line?" and strongly encourage him/her to nod yes. "Good, that'll be our story for the match report", problem solved, no drop ball required, and the result is just.
  16. macheath

    macheath New Member

    Jul 8, 2005

    Right. The only way you could send off the keeper in the scenario as described is if the keeper's "taking down" of the striker was so harsh as to warrant a serious foul play dismissal. But the basis of the send off wouldn't be DOGSO, just the violence involved in the foul, which can warrant a send off on its own at any time during play.
  17. davidjd

    davidjd Member

    Derby Rams; SJ Earthquakes
    Jun 30, 2000
    Wilmington, NC / Bay Area, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That was my first instinct as well.

    My second instinct, assuming you didn't think it was close enough to pull this off, was to work it out that an attacker was standing all alone on the top of the goal area when you dropped the ball. We do this all the time, especially in youth/rec games, for the defending team when we stop play while the keeper is holding the ball. (Usually due to an injury somewhere on the field....I just stand next to the keeper and tell him to pick the ball up after I drop it. Never have I had an attacker interfere or anyone complain.)

    Quietly tell the attacker to stand where you're going to drop it. If you do this before everyone is expecting the restart then you may not even have to get the defenders out of your way. If there are defenders already in the way, just be creative in getting them to let there guard down or move out of the way. "Look! Cheerleaders!" or Walk over to the defenders and ask something like, "Was that your dad?" Then just turn around and drop the ball.

    I say all this since it's the only situation this would EVER occur would be in a youth/rec league where you could get away with the sort of stuff. If you're involved with a higher level game then these options won't work, however at the same time you wouldn't be in this situation since parents wouldn't be close enough to the goal for this to happen in the first place.

    - Davidjd
  18. Wreave

    Wreave Member

    May 4, 2005
    Colorado Springs, CO
    Two wrongs make a right?

    If the ball was literally on the line, you might get away with calling the goal, but realistically, if the goal's being prevented by an outside agent, then it's going to be further out.

    If you can't get the defending team to be sporting on the restart, just write it up in the match report.

    I can't imagine how the defenders, who may not understand what's happening, are going to feel about referees for the rest of their lives if you deliberately distract them to attempt to allow a score. If I were a coach, I'd be livid.

    I guess I just believe the laws and sporting behavior allow for justice in most situations. In those that don't, write it up and move on, but don't change the game to suit your own beliefs on "what should have happened"?
  19. davidjd

    davidjd Member

    Derby Rams; SJ Earthquakes
    Jun 30, 2000
    Wilmington, NC / Bay Area, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm believing you'd only ever be in this situation in a low level game. Everyone involved will understand what's going on and not get too hyped up over it. In the end, both teams know it was the right outcome. Heck, I wouldn't doubt if a majority of the players would be so clueless you couldn't just call it a goal and head back to the center circle. :)

    Option 3: Game over due to controllable fans. Explain to the defending team that either they allow the ball to go in on the drop or they can all go home and the match report will be very clear as to why.

    - davidjd
  20. Wreave

    Wreave Member

    May 4, 2005
    Colorado Springs, CO
    Seems like more of the same. Would your "very clear" match report note that the offending fan was removed, that all other fans were docile, but you terminated the match because the defending team refused to allow the goal?

    Sorry, I guess we disagree on this issue. Law 18 can be stretched too far.
  21. Press

    Press Member

    May 8, 2007
    Only in a youth/rec game? Here it is occuring in a Dutch Eredivisie game (i.e., first division professional soccer in Holland):

    The result should always be the same, no matter what level. You have to do a drop ball on the goal area line nearest where the outside interference occurred. Both teams have an equal right to contest the drop ball. Write in the match report the incident, however, do not worry about writing whether a team did or did not contest the drop ball.

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