I recently got called for 2 PKs against in my coed league (I'm the sweeper, and those were the first two ever called against me in about 80 games or so) in which slide tackling is not allowed. I'd like some perspective on this to know if I was correct. In the first one, a forward from the other team and I were in a full sprint for a loose ball on the ground. I was running straight towards my own goal and the forward was heading towards the goal on about a 45 degree angle. We both got a piece of the ball at essentially the same time and crashed our shoulders together in a somewhat violent collision. We both fell down. I got called for a foul and we gave up a PK. The second one was almost the same except that I actually got my foot on the ball a split second before the forward did and again we both went to the ground. Fortunately, karma was with us as the other team missed both of their PKs and we converted on one of our own in the 90th minute to win the game 4-3. Also, the field was extremely sloppy, it was raining, we have no ARs and field is only lit from one side. The ref was probably 30 yards away on both calls. I think that the first one should have been a no-call and the second either a foul in my favor, or more likely a no-call again. I'm sure no one will believe me on this, but I believe the ref was predisposed to calls against me as he told me he 'remembered me from a previous game' in a tone of voice that led me to think that he thought I have a habit of playing violently after I complained about a previous call that went against me. The game he refers to was the one in which I got my first card (yellow) in 3 years (about 80 games). Anyway, I sent in ref evaluation, but since it's highly unlikely that I'm going to get feedback, I thought I'd post here to hear what other refs think.
Not being there, I can only give an opinion based on your description. You said 'I was running straight towards my own goal and the forward was heading towards the goal on about a 45 degree angle.' and '...and crashed our shoulders together in a somewhat violent collision.' From this description, I deduce that the forward had the ball and you charged the forward (shoulder to shoulder) using excessive force. This is one of the 10 penal fouls. You are allowed to charge an opponent shoulder to shoulder as long as it is not 'careless, reckless or using excessive force'.
As you describe them, it would be difficult to make a call. However, the ref has his own view of the play. He has to judge if someone played unfairly, sometimes it will be against the player who got there last, sometimes it will be against the more aggressive or larger player, sometimes it will against a player known to cause problems. The ref has a very short period of time to make the call, because the next play is already started. It sounds like you may fall into the third category. If you get this ref again, I would suggest being extra polite, and avoid collisions - particularly in the box! If you see him frequently, it may take a few games to convince him you're not violent. If not, it sounds like you're playing OK as far as the other refs are concerned.
Actually, the ball was loose because the forward had kicked it about 10-15 yards ahead so as not to be slowed down by dribbling. If there was slide tackling allowed, I could have easily of tackled the ball away cleanly, but without that option, it's either get there at the same time, or let him go in alone on the keeper. In fact, to avoid yet another PK, a let the guy go in on third one of these and of course he scored.
If he used excessive force, wouldn't that be a sendoff? I thought the standard USSF instruction was that careless is a foul and a FK, reckless is a foul, caution, and a FK, and that excessive force is a foul, send off, and a FK.
Here's my quick take on the situation. Judging from your description of the incident, I'm guessing the league probably isn't that competitive and the overall quality of the officiating probably isn't very high. The referee is out there to make sure things don't get out of hand and no one gets hurt. A lot of times refs in this situation tend to favor the offensive player more than the defensive player. The defender may be in his right to exert some physical contact, but because the defensive player initiates contact 3 times out of 4, and the league doesn't want someone getting hurt, the defender is less likely to get the benefit of the doubt. It's not the true laws of the game, but they suit the purpose of the league--a fun, safe game. The refs at this level will be very inconsistent in how the apply laws, so try to adjust your game to them. They're not going to adjust theirs for you.
Drenasu, pushing the ball ahead is part of dribbling. I would have to see the play to make a judgment. The fact remains that there was a shoulder charge and it was done using excessive force. If both of you got there at the same time, he (the forward) was moving in the same direction as the ball (since he pushed it forward), so I probably would decide that you charged the forward, instead of the forward charged you, so the foul would be against you. Note that the key to this is the excessive force. That is the only thing that makes it a foul. Billf, from the description, I did not get the impression that this was 'serious foul play', but just a charge using excessive force. I also did not get the impression that it was a 'tactical foul' that would merit a caution.
I guess I see your point, but it just seems odd to me because this sort of play happens fairly often (three times in that game alone, but usually once a game is normal), so it would seem that I would have had it called against me sometime before in one of the previous 80 or so games I played in this league. I still don't see why a no-call is not the correct call in this case as we both did exactly the same thing to each other at exactly the same time, with both of us kicking the ball before contact. Common sense would seem to favor a no-call, but I'm not a ref so what do I know? Anyway, thanks for the responses everyone.
Well, to avoid confusion there's a bit of mixed terminology here. A "Serious Foul Play" is a foul that is done with excessive force, resulting in a red card and ejection of the player. I think a better way to describe the incident might be a "hard tackle" in the box. From the sounds of it, the attacker had broke free from the defensive line (possible offside trap gone awry?) You, as the second to last defender, gave chase before the attacker could create a goal-scoring opportunity. The attacker kicks the ball forward about 10-15 feet into the penalty area instead of dribbling forward (probably because he knew you were coming and wanted to get a shot off faster before you arrived). You, as the defender, charge straight for the free ball while the attacker is still in a sprint. Being the faster player, you both reach the ball at the same time and slam into each other. In the eyes of the referee, he probably felt the attacker had the upper hand when going to play the ball. You reached him in full stride and slammed into him, inside the box, as he was about to take a shot. In other words, you wiped out the attacker in desperation by not breaking stride as he was about to score a goal. The only real saving grace of the situation was that the attacker himself was also in full stride attempting to play the ball first. If my analysis of the situation is accurate, I think there most definitely would be a case for a penalty awarded if the referee felt the attacker had the upper hand. If the attacker had indeed reached the ball first, established position, only to be clobbered by the sprinting defender it would result in either a yellow or red card. Since the attacker was running too, the ref only awarded the PK. Also remember that this evidently is a recreational league due to the coed nature and the no slide tackle rule. Even though you gave it your all to prevent the shot from going off, you did endanger the safety of the attacker in a desperation move (clobbering him despite shoulder-to-shoulder). If slide tackling were allowed you could safely clear the ball, but since it was not there was nothing you could really do "safely" except pray your keeper would block the shot
It was really more of 1v1 situation where the guy went to the outside (about 5 yards to my left) and blasted the ball ahead 10-15 yards (not feet) because he knew if he tried to keep it close to him he would have no chance to get around me. To me, when you kick the ball 30-45 feet ahead of you, you are no longer dribbling, but passing it into space (to yourself, I suppose). We both got to the ball at precisely the same time, kicked the ball at the same time , and neither of us established position, he was (probably) going to dribble once more or shoot, and I was looking to kick the ball over the end line for a corner. I did not hit him in desperation, I hit him as I was attempting to follow through with my clearance attempt. Of course, it's entirely possible that tthe ref saw it in a way that you described in which case, I would have to agree with your assessment.
At any level it is a toss up if you charge someone in the area....Never leave your feet and dont run someone over(even if it is legal) unless you are willing to accept the fact that a referee is both human and quite likely to not see things your way...........dont give them the chance.
If he kicked it way ahead, and you got there at the same time, I would let it go. He didn't have possession, which I would define as a situation in which clearly a player will touch the ball next if he/she so wishes. I am not sure what the official definition is. As long as the contact was shoulder to shoulder, and you clearly did not exert undue force that was not reciprocated, it is legal. It seems likely that in this situation the attacker conrtibuted to the contact in an effort to play the ball, and that you responded fairly. As for the second case, if you got the ball first without sliding, he clearly did not have possession and the same rules would apply. It sounds to me like the ref wanted to keep things "under control" because is was a co-ed game. I ref a lot of these kinds of games, and I usually let men play rougher with each other than with the girls. If it was a girl that you charged, I would probably call a foul, but you've got to mantain your manhood, especially in front of the ladies, so I wouldn't expect you to let some little punk run by you just because it might seem "too rough" to put the shoulder in on him.
Well, that was more or less how I saw it. It was a guy attacker by the way. And I have an update to the story in case anyone other than me actually still cares. I spoke with my keeper this weekend, and he told me that he protested to the ref about the second call and the ref replied with," Well, I didn't see it because I didn't have a good angle." Assuming this statement to be true, I was under the impression that a ref ought not to call a foul, and especially a PK, if he doesn't see the infraction clearly. It just sounds like he saw both of us on the ground after the play, and called it on me because he thinks I'm a violent player.
We had almost the same thing happened to the team I coach on Saturday: in the closing minutes of a 2-2 match, an attacker and a defender charged toward goal for a 50-50 ball. They collided at the shoulder, the defender nudged the ball away from the attacking player who fell over the outstretched leg of the defender. The ref, 50 pounds overweight and 40 yards behind the play, eventually catches up and points to the spot. Of course, he was wrong, the penalty taker made no mistake, and my team got hosed as a result. I don't think the ref was particularly biased (although it was an away match), but it's hard when you get screwed as a result of a bad decision, so I sympathize with the sweeper on this one.
Controled, or a mad dash? Perception - somewhat violent, to you. How might the ref see it? This is the key, I think. The idea here is saftey. "Full Speed" + "crashed our shoulders" + "extremely sloppy [field]" = better than average potential for serious injury. As a player, I wanted the official to explain his calls. As an official, I would tell the player what I see is dangerous about his/her play if asked/to prevent a dismissal.